Tubeless Rims

[shane BBoys]

I have used SIP tubeless for an age on the Jet, but toying with using AF any thoughts? I believe AF do not require the studs to be changed which must be a bonus?
Cheers Shane

[Rich Oswald]

I've used AF's on my GP for years and done many thousands of miles without issue. Tyres have always seated well also.

Rich'

[ToBoldlyGo]

Is that right about not having to change the studs? I didn't know that. I did think there was some sort of issue with the rims being supported properly on the hub though.

[CHRIS in MARGATE]

I had ScootRS for years without issue.
I changed to AF 3 years ago and mine sit perfectly where they are supposed to.

[ToBoldlyGo]

That's good to know Chris.

[corrado]

Tyres are difficult to fit to tubeless rims and very easily damaged in the wrong hands.

I've sold hundreds of the SIP rims (with tyres fitted) and use a tyre fitter that travels around Europe fitting race tyres to race and rally cars so he knows a bit about fitting tyres and tyres themselves. His machine pushes car tyres onto the rim but he won't use that method on 10" rims as he thinks the tyre bead may get damaged being such a small circumference, so he prefers the old school method of using levers. The first half of the tyre is pushed onto the rim and then requires the lever to flip it over the other edge. It's very tight and you need to get the one half as deep into the centre well as you can to make "the flip" a little easier. A few millimeters makes a world of difference. It's an issue that SIP obviously thought out when designing the rim, ie make the centre well as deep as possible. Being alloy they thought this might create a weak area so after making the well deeper they made the centre much thicker and that's why you have to use the longer (supplied) studs.

A couple of years ago I thought I'd try a stocking a few sets of AF rims, as customers tend to want the easy route and don't like the thought of removing old studs (I can't argue with that). My tyre fitter rarely has any issues fitting tyres on the SIP rims (Heidenau the exception to that rule) but this wasn't the case fitting tyres onto the AF rims. He clearly pointed out that the centre well is what was the issue and asked me not to bring him any more AF rims as he was a bit worried about cracking a rim with the tyre lever. So I've never sold them again since then .

Your hub has a lip that the rim seats against, it's designed to seat the rim snugly against so that the rims can't move sideways. I've seen plenty of split rims over the years with elongated stud holes caused by the the stud cutting into the steel rim over years of use as the hole is generally bigger than the stud to start with. The rim having the ability to move sideways would exacerbate the issue. Hence I prefer the rim being centered on the hub and not just the studs.
A few years ago I fitted some Audi alloy wheels on my VW, they were the same size and had the same 5 stud pitch, 5 x 100mm, but the centre bore of the VW rim was 57mm and the Audi 60mm and were designed to fit tight onto the centre spigot. I could plonk the VW rim on the axle and it'd sit firm while I aligned all the bolts, with the Audi rim I couldn't do this and had to take the weight of the tyre and rim with my arm at the same time as trying to align the bolts. I attended car shows at at time and showed my car so it was a regular event taking the wheels on and off cleaning the rears (and the wheel wells). It was always a pain in the rear.

I've not heard of this causing an issue but my personal preference is for a snug fit on the hub so I'll continue to only sell the SIP rims.

[ToBoldlyGo]

And that's bloody told you!

[Hat]

So how much of a ballache is it to remove the std studs from the hubs and fit the SIP extended ones? Also once done can these still be used for non-SIP rims in the future?

[rossclark]

It really depends if your hub studs have been in there 50 odd years and painted over many times. It often needs a good bit of heat a great care as the head is shallow - it's often better to double nut them out from the other side. There's not really a clearance issue so I never understood why they were made so shallow.

Anyway, yes you can fit an open nut and a standard rim with the SIP studs.

[Tractorman]

It helps if you use a single hex socket with the lead in bevelled edges ground off so you get more of the socket on the nut.

[Fast n Furious]

Removing old studs requires some care and attention to avoid irrevocably damaging the hub especially if they are original.
Remember that these screws are a left hand thread!
Trying to grip the head of the stepped screw is usually a waste of time.
I always use a good strong bench vice to grip the 8mm thread of the screw. Then, apply plenty of heat from a blow torch or oxy/propane (taking great care not to melt the ally). The stud will then work free. Once it has worked partially free, remove the heat and apply WD40 or similar. Work the hub back and forth to allow the lubricant to penetrate. If it jams up, apply heat again. Don't force it, you don't want to snap the screw or break off the hub lug. Eventually, it will work free without damaging the hub threads.
Yes... the extended studs can be used with steel rims, although it will look a bit shit. New washers and nylock nuts is recommended.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

I consider the SIP's to be the better tubeless rims because, as has been said, they maintain the OEM centring & support function.

TBH, when I acquired our first sets in 2012, I wasn't too keen on the idea of the long replacement studs & all that entails, but once you get the knack, it's fine.

So, with our first set, I decided to counterbore the holes deeper to allow K-nuts to fit. The consequences were that the drill broke into the tyre bead recess.

Whereas many with no affinity to Lambrettas may have scrapped them, I simply fitted some interference fit metal tubing that allowed air pressure to be maintained. The sleeves will never come out whilst the wheel is in use & the impact upon the wheel well is minimal. It strikes me as a practicable, neater solution to the longer studs, TBH, but I don't seem to follow the same path as many. Ha!

They have never leaked, are a neat solution, but even though I might do so again, am not recommending anybody does the same.

[nickw]

Excellent info from Corrado, cheers. What about the Casa Performance aluminium tubeless wheel rims that have now come onto the market, does anyone know if they are any better or worse than the SIP rims?

[dave999]

Tyres are difficult to fit to tubeless rims and very easily damaged in the wrong hands.

A few years ago I fitted some Audi alloy wheels on my VW, they were the same size and had the same 5 stud pitch, 5 x 100mm, but the centre bore of the VW rim was 57mm and the Audi 60mm and were designed to fit tight onto the centre spigot. I could plonk the VW rim on the axle and it'd sit firm while I aligned all the bolts, with the Audi rim I couldn't do this and had to take the weight of the tyre and rim with my arm at the same time as trying to align the bolts. I attended car shows at at time and showed my car so it was a regular event taking the wheels on and off cleaning the rears (and the wheel wells). It was always a pain in the rear.

hub centric rims can be fitted to hubs with a smaller centre if you use profiled lug nuts or studs flat nuts and profiled washers.
but i'm with you totally. getting the things on without a Stud to hang the wheel on is a pain... 1 stud to help mount. then removed to be replaced with a lug nut is helpful......

with a too big centre,the profile of the lug nuts or washers centres the rim. trouble is the hub centric steel rims usually have either holes in them for flat nuts and/or flat washers or in the case of alloy sometimes take a sex nut i.e a nut with a sleeve that fits through the mounting hole. the sex nut will have a profile for a seat that is deep down the hole...to help with centering, that seat is not easily reached with a profiled washer as the hole is usually too narrow. so the original nuts need to be used on those wheels

so you need the dished holes in the wheels and the corresponding profile to the nut or washer
or convert to studs and nuts or have a wheel mounting tool/stud

or you get some wheel centering rings made up that you press into you wheels that fit snug on the hub centre....

either way....provided the wheel is done up evenly and to the correct torque it sticks the the car hub via friction and should not move. the studs or lug nuts should never see shear forces..... weight of car, cornering forces and those caused by acceleration and braking should never be great enough to allow the wheel to move on the hub as the friction forces are massive provided the nuts are torqued correctly and a flat clean contact face is presented by both parts

on a scooter the success of the mounting will depend on friction and the strength of the mounting sections in the wheel.

bendy cheap rims OR
rims with power coat or new paint between rim face and hub flat area around the stud
will come loose eventually and stretch the holes unless re torque regularly until they stop coming loose... few weeks....maybe a month of regular driving
In/out stretch if the rim does not fit well on the hub and in the direction of wheel travel if the paint or powder coat moves in the junction between hub and rim.

same principle used to keep a car flywheel on flywheel and boss on end of crank all rusty or you get loads of loctite between the two...flywheel comes off and smashes the bellhousing. perfectly clean metal on metal. friction/microwelds keep it on and all the nuts/lugs do is provide the pressure that creates the friction...they see no shear forces....therefore can't be chewed snapped or whatever.

comes down to a properly centred wheel Then the hardness and cleanness of the interface between the two and the torque used on the nuts/studs to mount the wheel. Paint or powder coat just acts as a lubricant to defeat the friction until they have moved smeared or chipped off to a final resting place.

i lost a front wheel on the edgware road 66 VW Van all just in new paint good job it had hub caps .... full van. tools under all of it....i am now really careful


dave

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Because the practice with cars etc has been to use the hub for centring the wheels, it is an important factor not to be forgotten. Even in the instance of wheels with bigger centres being used on smaller hubs, the aftermarket sellers of such changes supply centring rings. It is my understanding that such rings should be non-plastic, but even then, as in the use of soft metals, 'slippage' can occur due to bumps or drops, but this may be most likely encountered with an off-road vehicle. Some Insurers will not consider offering cover for such modifications.

I would have thought that, particularly @ the front, any two wheeler is more likely to encounter loads greater than that encountered by the majority of road cars, unless I am mistaken & wheelies are commonplace Very doubtful with the majority being front wheel drive.

[shane BBoys]

Thanks for all the info received.
I will stick with SIP.

Cheers Shane.