S3 wiring (points or electronic?)

[Lord-Spanner]

hello fellow scooterist,

As my S3 Li150 stands it needs a new wiring loom as its been butchered about (yes it starts and runs but no lights/horn etc) and its very brittle so snaps very easily so needs replacing, now the questions are.......

if I stick to a standard loom (with battery) for the time being for points/coil etc and at a later date possibly go electronic ignition (only a thought at the mow) is it easy enough to add electronic ignition with a standard loom (ie plug and play) or would I need to replace the whole loom again?

Suppose what I'm asking is would it be possible to get an electronic ignition loom but still keep the points/coil system, as i'd rather do it now than replace the entire loom at a later date if I decide to go electronic.............

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

I will try to be brief....

I acknowledge that I & many others are basically trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear. We are endeavouring to make an Italian shopping machine decades old into something re-engineered, whereas it should have been scrapped long ago.

You are obviously a hands on guy. Unless you can somehow source a NOS genuine OEM loom, your best options are to either purchase from the likes of Anthony Tambs, or build your own using the original as a pattern. That way, you can select the best cable, connections/terminals & sleeving. Somebody will hopefully kindly correct me if I am wrong, but tinned electrical wire may be the best to use.

As for ignition, I am extremely outspoken on the subject, but I think that most people change to electronic for 'reliability'. Just browsing this Forum will indicate otherwise & all I can suggest is to get a well set up contact breaker ignition with 12 volt DC to a battery so that you can be seen in the event of stalling or a breakdown.

[Lord-Spanner]

I will try to be brief....

I acknowledge that I & many others are basically trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear. We are endeavouring to make an Italian shopping machine decades old into something re-engineered, whereas it should have been scrapped long ago.

You are obviously a hands on guy. Unless you can somehow source a NOS genuine OEM loom, your best options are to either purchase from the likes of Anthony Tambs, or build your own using the original as a pattern. That way, you can select the best cable, connections/terminals & sleeving. Somebody will hopefully kindly correct me if I am wrong, but tinned electrical wire may be the best to use.

As for ignition, I am extremely outspoken on the subject, but I think that most people change to electronic for 'reliability'. Just browsing this Forum will indicate otherwise & all I can suggest is to get a well set up contact breaker ignition with 12 volt DC to a battery so that you can be seen in the event of stalling or a breakdown.

haha see your point on that one, but saying that there's many old classic cars that should of been scrapped Think basically it's a bicycle with an engine and gear box

Indeed I am yes, doubt you'd find a nos loom, can I ask who Anthony Tambs is?? the original loom has bits missing like the regulator that guessing sits in the black box above the back wheel so really that's not an option really, so will need to buy one that's ready made up.

Certainly would need reliability especially using it for work, and that sounds like a plan just in case it does let me down, if I did that is it easy enough to wire in an electronic ignition or would another loom be needed and would I need an ignition key fitting for it?

[Toddy]

If you want a bespoke loom try Graham Walker he can knock up all types of Good Quality Looms as required and an LCGB member to boot contact details below

walkergs464@aol.com

[Rich Oswald]

If you want a bespoke loom try Graham Walker he can knock up all types of Good Quality Looms as required and an LCGB member to boot contact details below

walkergs464@aol.com

+1

[rossclark]

To answer one of your original points - the standard loom can still be used with an electronics setup. In either AC or Dc format it's a matter of getting power from either the rectifier/battery combination or regulator into the loom - this depends on the type of junction box you use.

In the original Dc configure with the square plastic cased rectifier the junctions are all built into the top of the box. You'll discard this along with the coil. So you you need to find a new junction that does what you want. These are usually the round type from the DC SIL GP - all the connections are cross connected in this type except the greens.

If you go to electronic there's three wires from the stator go to the CDI - usually red/green/white and you take the green from the loom to the other terminal on the CDI.

There'll usually be one or two yellows from the stator - depending on if it's been wired for DC (2) or AC (1). These connect to your regulator / rectifier.

For the simple AC Vethpa type regulator the output simply plugs into the junction box providing power to your brown/purple/pink in the loom.

For DC you connect the output of the rectifier to the battery to charge it and also to the junction box providing power to the loom.

The main difference between an AC and DC loom is the spur for the battery.

[Lord-Spanner]

If you want a bespoke loom try Graham Walker he can knock up all types of Good Quality Looms as required and an LCGB member to boot contact details below

walkergs464@aol.com

+1

If you want a bespoke loom try Graham Walker he can knock up all types of Good Quality Looms as required and an LCGB member to boot contact details below

walkergs464@aol.com

Ok cool, would a bespoke one be a little over the top? guess it depends on my needs

[Toddy]

Ok cool, would a bespoke one be a little over the top? guess it depends on my needs [/quote]

No he likes a challenge

[Lord-Spanner]

To answer one of your original points - the standard loom can still be used with an electronics setup. In either AC or Dc format it's a matter of getting power from either the rectifier/battery combination or regulator into the loom - this depends on the type of junction box you use.

In the original Dc configure with the square plastic cased rectifier the junctions are all built into the top of the box. You'll discard this along with the coil. So you you need to find a new junction that does what you want. These are usually the round type from the DC SIL GP - all the connections are cross connected in this type except the greens.

If you go to electronic there's three wires from the stator go to the CDI - usually red/green/white and you take the green from the loom to the other terminal on the CDI.

There'll usually be one or two yellows from the stator - depending on if it's been wired for DC (2) or AC (1). These connect to your regulator / rectifier.

For the simple AC Vethpa type regulator the output simply plugs into the junction box providing power to your brown/purple/pink in the loom.

For DC you connect the output of the rectifier to the battery to charge it and also to the junction box providing power to the loom.

The main difference between an AC and DC loom is the spur for the battery.

WOW sounds good that I can use the standard loom for electronic ignition if need be, now that sounds complex to me not being an expert on these bikes YET but can't be that bad in all fairness, probably sounds worse that it is

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Apologies for my abscence from this thread, but glad to see that other contributors are helping & singing from the same hymn book.

If you need a new loom & want to buy one rather than re-engineer/replicate your own, it pays to buy a good one. Especially if a fellow Club member makes them. If you do go that route, ask about tinned copper wire. Perhaps that is over the top, but somebody on this Forum has even spoken of it, so I feel sure I'm not alone in believing it to be beneficial. Or I could just be mad

[Paul Slack]

Standard loom should be fine. Differences start at the wires leaving the flywheel for the regulator and cdi really, so don't affect the actual loom much.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Standard loom should be fine. Differences start at the wires leaving the flywheel for the regulator and cdi really, so don't affect the actual loom much.

Admittedly, the new looms that I have acquired have coped as far as ratings, but there has always been quality issues compared with OEM. Silly things such as terminations coming off, sleeves of the wrong sizes &/or splitting.

That's why I will either make my own in future or buy from somewhere within the UK where they are physically made. Preferably within kicking distance....

[Paul Slack]

I wasn't suggesting anything about purchasing a loom. My answer was in direct response to this, from the original questioner:

"if I stick to a standard loom (with battery) for the time being for points/coil etc and at a later date possibly go electronic ignition (only a thought at the mow) is it easy enough to add electronic ignition with a standard loom (ie plug and play) or would I need to replace the whole loom again?"

Again. A standard loom should be fine. (However it is acquired).

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

I wasn't suggesting anything about purchasing a loom. My answer was in direct response to this, from the original questioner:

"if I stick to a standard loom (with battery) for the time being for points/coil etc and at a later date possibly go electronic ignition (only a thought at the mow) is it easy enough to add electronic ignition with a standard loom (ie plug and play) or would I need to replace the whole loom again?"

Again. A standard loom should be fine. (However it is acquired).

I understood that Paul

Often it is assumed that the old OEM's are beyond their 'Use by date' but I remain amazed how well they were made as far as mechanical properties. Thankfully, I have kept all old looms & portions of them, along with stators, as in general, if it was required to replicate as closely as possible, only the terminations may require attention & the sleeving, which we all know, does a brilliant impression of uncooked pasta in terms of brittleness.....

[Lord-Spanner]

Apologies for my abscence from this thread, but glad to see that other contributors are helping & singing from the same hymn book.

If you need a new loom & want to buy one rather than re-engineer/replicate your own, it pays to buy a good one. Especially if a fellow Club member makes them. If you do go that route, ask about tinned copper wire. Perhaps that is over the top, but somebody on this Forum has even spoken of it, so I feel sure I'm not alone in believing it to be beneficial. Or I could just be mad

Thats ok all help is appreciated, tbh I'm not sure which way I'm going yet, but deffo need a new one as the old one is not in a good way really, very brittle and something has gone on and taped up in the little junction box, oh and whats this tinned copper wire then? guessing its better but in what way?

[Lord-Spanner]

Standard loom should be fine. Differences start at the wires leaving the flywheel for the regulator and cdi really, so don't affect the actual loom much.

Admittedly, the new looms that I have acquired have coped as far as ratings, but there has always been quality issues compared with OEM. Silly things such as terminations coming off, sleeves of the wrong sizes &/or splitting.

That's why I will either make my own in future or buy from somewhere within the UK where they are physically made. Preferably within kicking distance....

Apart from members on here that make them any recommendations? I have bought a fair amount of parts from scooter restorations which seem to be pretty good stuff, I've looked at their looms which are made in Nottingham which look quite good

[Lord-Spanner]

I wasn't suggesting anything about purchasing a loom. My answer was in direct response to this, from the original questioner:

"if I stick to a standard loom (with battery) for the time being for points/coil etc and at a later date possibly go electronic ignition (only a thought at the mow) is it easy enough to add electronic ignition with a standard loom (ie plug and play) or would I need to replace the whole loom again?"

Again. A standard loom should be fine. (However it is acquired).

I understood that Paul

Often it is assumed that the old OEM's are beyond their 'Use by date' but I remain amazed how well they were made as far as mechanical properties. Thankfully, I have kept all old looms & portions of them, along with stators, as in general, if it was required to replicate as closely as possible, only the terminations may require attention & the sleeving, which we all know, does a brilliant impression of uncooked pasta in terms of brittleness.....

Now now girls no arguing on my thread please I've not looked fully at my loom yet but what I have seen isn't nice, bodged taped joints, cracked and cracking sleeving when I move it (the uncooked pasta term is spot on ) What I want to do is alleviate any reliability issues that may rear there ugly head when you least need them, like no lights when its dark, or no horn when you need it etc etc and worst of all for it to die completely and not restart when your 50 miles from home

[HxPaul]

What I've done is,I've got the a/c 12v loom and everything else is bought from Anthony Tambs (on facebook at Lambretta tuning).

[Paul Slack]

Apart from members on here that make them any recommendations? I have bought a fair amount of parts from scooter restorations which seem to be pretty good stuff, I've looked at their looms which are made in Nottingham which look quite good

I get all of mine from Jason Frost at Absolutely Scooters in Sheffield. He gets only quality looms from a variety of suppliers to his business.
All the best mate

Paul

[TurboTrev]

I've found casa looms to be excellent.