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New Layshaft

Technical help for Series one, two and three Lambrettas. Models include the Li, Li Special, TV, SX, GP, Serveta and API/SIL models

Re: New Layshaft

Postby Dazts1 » Fri May 08, 2020 11:25 am

With all the extra power available now a days against what was available back in the day. Having being down the road due to failed layshaft , I know where I’ll take my chance.
How do we know the quality of an OEM is any better than that of a remake available today. I passed my failed series 3 layshaft onto a mate who xrays metal . He came back with results saying it had tiny fractures all over.
Having only owned that 2nd hand layshaft for a couple of year prior to its failure , I had no idea of its history.
The fact of a newer layshaft is it hasn’t been under stress that we know off. I personally run a mb at the moment but that’s because at the time 2015 I thought it was a better option. No proof i know.
There are now a few options out there and I for one would be putting a newer layshaft in rather than an old one in something I was planning on using.

One more point to raise is , how many new (of any make ) layshafts have failed ? I personally haven’t heard of any.
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Fri May 08, 2020 12:43 pm

Dazts1 wrote:With all the extra power available now a days against what was available back in the day. Having being down the road due to failed layshaft , I know where I’ll take my chance.
How do we know the quality of an OEM is any better than that of a remake available today. I passed my failed series 3 layshaft onto a mate who xrays metal . He came back with results saying it had tiny fractures all over.
Having only owned that 2nd hand layshaft for a couple of year prior to its failure , I had no idea of its history.
The fact of a newer layshaft is it hasn’t been under stress that we know off. I personally run a mb at the moment but that’s because at the time 2015 I thought it was a better option. No proof i know.
There are now a few options out there and I for one would be putting a newer layshaft in rather than an old one in something I was planning on using.

One more point to raise is , how many new (of any make ) layshafts have failed ? I personally haven’t heard of any.


You are absolutely right to follow your own reasoning & take comfort in that decision :D

But my reasoning is also sound. I would be prepared to use either OEM or a brand new replica in a motor were they subjected to the same non-destructive testing & analysis. With the OEM, that will have conformed to precise manufacturing principles @ some time, many years ago, & with an unknown history since, should ideally be checked for continued use. Unfortunately, with the best will in the World, I cannot say the same for the brand new pattern layshaft, despite anything you, or anybody else, can say.

Honestly, I take my hat off to anybody that cares enough to argue the point over something which is important to all of us, rather than be apathetic, which is so common these days! After all, I don't know anybody that voted for Boris, so presumably most voters stayed @ home.

As an aside, I have scraped the surface of the feasibility of low volume, non-destructive testing of components. The U.K. doesn't seem to be brimming with contractors offering the service, except for the rail industry, which would appear to indicate that they are certainly not embracing a culture of new is better. Mind you, knowing how money comes first in this country, the Rail Franschises must have had their arms twisted halfway up their backs to comply :roll:
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby shamrockexpress » Sat May 09, 2020 11:17 am

I have 4 or 5 italian ones at present which during inspection look fine,,,,,,,YES LOOK FINE!!! I have been using them over the years in several different motors (ts1s Gt 205s etc) and never had any issues, granted they are not high powered so they suit my use. I will always torque them properly and be happy to take my chance.
I,m too tight to throw them in the bin for no reason and spend 100 quid on something which has maybe been used in 500 motors as opposed to 100s of thousands of innocentis.............which increases the odds dramatically.
will do me for now if one of my OME does break and i live to tell the tale rest assure it will be right here :-) :D :D :D
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby Dazts1 » Sat May 09, 2020 11:58 am

We are all free to make our own choices obviously. I would have been with you on that descision had I not had a failure myself. In fact 2 very good friends also have had the same failure also. It was that that prompted me to go new. I’ve still not heard of any remade layshaft failing in this way. Regardless of manufacture / brand. I’m not saying they haven’t but I’d definitely be interested to hear if they have.

It takes me to another story , about 3 years ago I had my van broken into. All my tools were stolen outside the house. The 1st thing I said to my work colleagues (all having the same branded vans) was remove your tools on a night. Yeah yeah most said they’ll be ok. I said take them out , it’s a gutting feeling when you come out to an empty van. It takes me 2 trips to and from the van morning and night. A ballache sure , but at least I can sleep on a night.
Anyway sure enough over the next few month more and more of our company’s vans got broken into. All the lads saying I wish I’d taken my tools out ! guess what they now do.

Sometimes you have to find out the hard way yourself before action can be taken. We all get stuck in our ways.
Ride safe and don’t snap your layshafts. It hurts.
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby Scooterslag » Sat May 09, 2020 12:59 pm

Going though a forum search on broken layshafts on here and on scooterotica, there is one thing that does seem to come up a couple of times. A few people who did get their broken layshafts examined by experts in the metallurgy field all said that metal fatigue and age had a played a part in the failure. I know this isn't a full investigation into why this happens, but I would feel a bit safer running a new layshaft from Casa/AF etc than one of my originals. Paul
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Sat May 09, 2020 1:06 pm

The debate can run & run, but it would be great to think some good would come from it, that being an economic means by which any layshaft can be proved fit for purpose. That is the most frustrating thing about all of this banter, in that there is no unequivocal input from somebody familiar with non destructive testing that can help enable closure so we can all step down from our soap boxes.

I've laid my cards on the table. Without some viable evidence that pattern lay-shafts are produced to OEM standards, my choice is to keep with the sort that have. If further choice is available, I would advocate that any OEM lay-shaft be selected from a known, or likely unstressed engine. Fortunately, I am in that position & steer clear of any (predominantly UK!) lay-shafts that have likely been stressed, over-torqued or under-torqued. Often, I have come across complete engines where it is clear that the rear hub has never been removed, particuarly in the case of Li engines. Even in current times, a mostly complete engine can be had @ a bargain price for considerably less than some pattern lay-shafts. Do bear in mind that re-made lay-shafts without pedigree are not manufactured solely with our health & safety in mind. Profit will be the priority. Otherwise they would be for sale with proof of their quality, rather than the presumption that they are better, simply because none have failed. It's early days yet.....
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby MickYork » Sat May 09, 2020 1:22 pm

On a slightly more cynical note....if an old original layshaft breaks there is no comeback, whereas if a recently bought, new layshaft breaks you may have a case with the supplier/manufacturer (if you survived the breakage !!).
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby gizmo » Sat May 09, 2020 1:47 pm

Scooterslag wrote:Going though a forum search on broken layshafts on here and on scooterotica, there is one thing that does seem to come up a couple of times. A few people who did get their broken layshafts examined by experts in the metallurgy field all said that metal fatigue and age had a played a part in the failure. I know this isn't a full investigation into why this happens, but I would feel a bit safer running a new layshaft from Casa/AF etc than one of my originals. Paul

Completely agree. In a tuned engine especially I would never use an original one. You are tripling the power they were designed for.
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby Scooterdude » Sat May 09, 2020 3:11 pm

MickYork wrote:On a slightly more cynical note....if an old original layshaft breaks there is no comeback, whereas if a recently bought, new layshaft breaks you may have a case with the supplier/manufacturer (if you survived the breakage !!).


Absolutely, and this was my point in my earlier post but as wt1 suggested you may have problems proving you fitted it correctly, torqued it correctly and didn’t abuse it by say dropping down a pothole etc, but that said would any of the suppliers want a relatively high profile (in scooter land that is) shitstorm of a court case over a hundred quid part, i think if the worst was to happen most would bung you another sort your scooter out and hope you didn’t go public so to speak.
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby Storkfoot » Wed May 13, 2020 8:37 pm

Image

On the left Is the AF one I have just received. On the right, an old Innocenti S3, I think. The first thing you notice is that the AF one is heavier and more substantial in certain areas.

So far, I am impressed. Let’s see how it marries up with the sliding dog next.
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby Scooterdude » Wed May 13, 2020 8:56 pm

Storkfoot wrote:Image

On the left Is the AF one I have just received. On the right, an old Innocenti S3, I think. The first thing you notice is that the AF one is heavier and more substantial in certain areas.

So far, I am impressed. Let’s see how it marries up with the sliding dog next.
Hi, ive been using a MEC sliding dog and it fitted the new AF Layshaft perfectly, done a short ride and all is good.
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Re: New Layshaft

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Thu May 14, 2020 9:57 am

I read on RLC that the Casa layshafts are manufactured from forgings, as were the OEM. That might go some way to explaining the cost.

Does anybody know how the AF's are manufactured?
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