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1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

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1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:44 am

Having finished the rebuild, I enquired about re-chroming the existing kickstart. This was considerably more than the cost of a new one, so I purchased a new one.
This seemed pretty tight on the splined kickstart shaft, so I used a small piece of wood and started to tap it into position. Unfortunately, it jammed half way on and wouldn't come off again. It was not far enough onto the shaft to be able to get the securing bolt through its groove and out the other side to get the nut on.
The action of trying to tap it on also seemed to push the shaft further into the casing, and I could not pull it back out again.
I have now managed to open the jaws of the new kickstart sufficiently to get it off, and have easily fitted the old one onto the (undamaged) splines and tightened the fixing bolt and nut.
The problem I have now is that the kickstart rotates a certain distance, and then seems to jam against something solid inside the casing.
Before I stripped down the scooter, the engine kick started normally and ticked over smoothly.
I could obviously take off the kickstart mounting plate to see if I can identify the problem, but wondered if anyone had any suggestions before I do this?
I have returned the new kickstart for a refund, as it was considerably shorter than the one I already had, and it was only slightly curved along its length (like the one on a 125D) and not cranked outwards like mine, and all the other ones I have seen in various photos in books and on the internet. I also think the chrome plating was too thick on the inside of its splines, or the kickstart was poorly manufactured.
Any ideas please? I would love to get the scooter started now!
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby jbcollier » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:57 pm

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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby jbcollier » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:04 pm

The kickstart mech is THE weak point on these engines. They never got it right until they went to epicycle geartrain. Alas, you can't retrofit it to the earlier engines. So, they are hard to find parts for, and there are a slew of variations. So, when it works, don't mess with it, and don't hit it with a hammer.

You are going to have to take it apart and see what's up. It has obviously been pushed in. I suspect you knocked a circlip or two off their seats. Hopefully nothing is broken.

I also notice that they is a large replacement bolt in the upper hole. You should repair that bodge as well. Fit a helicoil to repair the case and a small sleeve to the housing so you can use the standard bolt again.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:15 pm

Many thanks John.
I will take it apart and see what has happened.
There was no top bolt at all when I bought the 150D, and the larger-than-original one I have put in there temporarily doesn't grip properly.
I have bought the correct bolt now, and will sort that out while I have the cover off.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:50 pm

I have removed the complete kickstart assembly from the engine casing with the pedal still on the shaft. Nothing seems to be in the wrong place, and nothing was loose, but I think there may be a problem inside the part that has the extra cover secured by three bolts/screws (of which the top one has the stripped thread).
With it off the scooter, I have tried to rotate the mechanism, and the quarter circle of cogs moves round and starts to depress the metal cone and engage the cog wheel around the base of the other spindle, but will not rotate it or the black cog wheel at the other end, which engages inside the engine casing. Only five or six of the quarter circle of cogs goes inside the other part, but it will not rotate right round and emerge on the other side. Something is fouling it.

Since I haven't tampered with any of this during the rebuild, I am beginning to think we may have bump started the scooter before strip down, rather than using the kickstart, and that this fault has always been there, but it was a long time ago now.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:09 am

My kickstart seems to be Solution 11 M 400/6 in the West Coast Lambretta Works Parts Catalogue on Page 25.

The notched quadrant (Item 61) is clearly being stopped from rotating fully by something, but I'm not clear why.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby jbcollier » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:15 pm

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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby jbcollier » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:18 pm

Does the bevel gear rotate freely?
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:06 pm

No. It doesn't rotate at all.
As soon as the toothed quadrant has fully engaged the base of the bevel gear (after compressing a spring-loaded plate), the toothed quadrant will go no further.
The bevel gear appears to be jammed.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby jbcollier » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:04 pm

With the kickstart fully released, can you rotate the bevel gear by hand?
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:20 pm

No. It doesn't move at all.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby jbcollier » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:30 pm

Ok, here’s a parts breakdown:

http://www.scooterhelp.com/manuals/LD_D ... page25.jpg

You are going to have to take it apart and see what’s up. Remove the external cover and see what’s up.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:38 am

Thanks John.
The link you provided is for the same page of the Parts Manual I was referring to in my email yesterday.
I guess the obvious culprit would be item 31, the pinion bearing, (Part No. 11110478) which may have seized.
I will take it apart and see.
Thanks again, Alan
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:40 pm

I took off the triangular cover (Part No. 11111221) by removing the remaining two bolts.
The bearing was running freely, and I could rotate the quadrant wheel right round to its normal stop position by manually operating the kickstart lever. It engaged the bevel pinion teeth and rotated the bevel pinion normally. As I allowed the quadrant to return to its starting position, it made a ratchety sound.
I then put the cover back, securing it fully with the two bolts.
The quadrant wheel would only rotate partially again, and the bevel pinion would not move at all.
I loosened the two cover bolts slightly, and this was sufficient to allow the quadrant to rotate fully, and the bevel pinion also rotated normally. As the quadrant returned to its starting position, it again made a ratchety sound.
I tightened the cover bolts again, and everything jammed.
I loosened the cover bolts again so that the cover was approx 1 to 2mm from its fully seated position, and this freed up everything again.
I have various thicknesses of gasket paper, and could make up a thicker gasket for the cover, which should solve the problem, but is there a better way???
Also, should the quadrant return with that ratchety sound, or does something else need adjusting?
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby jbcollier » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:08 am

Diagnosing stuff like this remotely (over the phone so to speak) is always difficult. Best I can say is that a “ratchety” sound as the kickstart lever returns is normal. As regards to the tight cover causing it to jam, there are a few possibilities:

One, that the inside of the cover is pressing against something causing it to jam. Measure the depth of the cover, including gaskets, to make sure there is adequate clearance.

Two, the bolts themselves are bottoming against something causing it to jam. The immediate suspect would be the cobbled, large bolt. Try tightening things back up and seeing if leaving this bolt loose solves the problem. If not, try it with the other bolts as well.

Three, one of, or all of, the bolts are tensioning something askew. Tighten slowly and when and which bolts cause the issue.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:11 pm

I have not been using the larger top bolt at all during this process, as it doesn't grip properly in the stripped thread.
I have just been using the two smaller bolts to secure the triangular cover. They screw into blind threaded holes in the main kickstart cover only, so cannot directly affect anything else.

The bearing inside the triangular cover was moving freely when this cover was detached, but I happened to put a small screwdriver through the centre hole of the bearing, and discovered some debris at the bottom of it, on the inside of the triangular cover.

I removed all of this, greased all the moving parts and then replaced the triangular cover, tightening the two small bolts right down onto the kickstart cover. The quadrant still moved to its full extent, rotating the pinion correctly, and returning to its start position without making the "ratchety" sound it had previously made.

I put the complete kickstart mechanism back into the scooter, and the kickstart operated correctly when the pedal was rotated, turning over the engine and without making the "ratchety" sound when the pedal was released.

I will, in any case, make up a better gasket for the triangular cover, as the new one I bought with the set is wafer thin.

Many thanks again John. Hopefully, once I have resprayed both the main cover and triangular cover, I can get the scooter off the bench, put the oil and petrol in, and get it started up!
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby jbcollier » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:37 pm

Myself, given the debris you found, I would completely strip the kickstart mech for a good clean and careful evaluation.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby Big Al » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:27 pm

I examined the kickstart mechanism for any other foreign debris, but found nothing else before lubricating all the moving parts.
I then looked more closely at what I had found in the bottom of the bearing, packed against the inside of the triangular cover, and discovered that it was a tightly compressed piece of blue paper - the sort that is often wrapped around a new bearing for protection in the box.
I have no way of knowing who left it there, and it was by pure chance that I found it.
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Re: 1955 Model 150D - Kickstart problem

Postby jbcollier » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:04 am

Good news!
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