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LI special - swansong project?

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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:52 pm

Warkton Tornado No.1 wrote:
However, since then, I've heard Bantams nowadays also ccontinue to use ATF, but some also use "steel on steel" with no friction (cork) @ all. I haven't got around to trying that (yet) but immediately you can imagine the number of plates that can be fitted as a consequence :!:

This concept certainly needs further investigation......Kerist! What if it worked? Imagine the impact upon all the sellers of 'our' performance clutches!

Who is brave enough to try? :?


Me. I'll give it a go after I've finished this project I'm building another engine which is based on scrap Indian casings, SR175 barrel, TS185 suzuki piston and 60/115 crank. It's going in this, but that's another story.
ImageL

Any knackered clutch corks gratefully received. :D
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dscscotty » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:16 pm

Dickie just in relation to concerns around using thin (1mm) Steele plates, we had some made at 0.9mm, 400 to be exact, and used them in our engines for years, this was before more modern clutch systems became readily available, the usual was a machined Scoot RS crownwheel, spider/bell etc, and was fitted with 6 thinner surflex plates, or we could easily fit 5 standard-surflex/adige plates in with plenty of separation, utilising more plates allowed for lighter springs than the heavy duty type required to uprate clutches at the time.
Great little set up, with one winning the ladies BSM Championship 3 or 4 times.
There are still some out there today, running perfectly well with 0.9mm steels, Ts1's, Rapido 250's etc, all rally going mile munchers.
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:49 pm

Hey Scotty :(

I've also used thinner steel plates years ago for racing before the advent of better, purpose built clutches & even prior to the CamLam type.

They are still adequate for road engines, but any engine ragged to the limit will result in really bad burrs on the ears. I utilised old OEM plates surface ground to suit, but left roughish deliberately.

My question to you is whether you used a better grade steel than me?

What would be good, if practicable, would be thinner plates created from thicker material, leaving the ears as thick as possible, enough to allow engagement of the friction plates to the steel plates. Some Japenese motorcycle clutch friction plates in alloy are stepped in that manner, so the principle does work.
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:38 pm

Scotty, your experience with 1mm (0.9mm) steels is interesting. I used them once and got a warped plate in just a few hundred miles. Mine was one with bent long tangs, so maybe that was something to do with. Too long ago to look back and find out. I just assumed the plate was too thin.
Might be worth giving them another chance?

WT1. I really like the idea of thick tangs being left on 1.5mm plates machined down to 1mm.

the reality is that my motor does not require 6 plates; I just want to do it to achieve a really light lever action and also just for the sake of it.

I think I'll go into the garage now and have a little potter.
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:05 pm

The fundamental way of improving the mechanism to activate the clutch is by use of rack & pinion. That is my next objective, but not via a 'bought' conversion, as the current cost is more than I am willing to pay.

That's not to say that they are poor VFM. It's the scenario that I am in.

I already have a rack & pinion from a motorbike that will require an adaptor for the rack, to centralise it with the clutch, to be fitted onto the crankcase cover.
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby Andy B.L.C. » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:52 am

Don't understand WHY!? (but do...) the currently only commercially available rack & pinion easy clutch remains in the hands of one hugely profiting, by it, company. Check thesteelweasel proto type geared clutch mechanism... Reckon even I could do that! :D
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:33 am

Andy B.L.C. wrote:Don't understand WHY!? (but do...) the currently only commercially available rack & pinion easy clutch remains in the hands of one hugely profiting, by it, company. Check thesteelweasel proto type geared clutch mechanism... Reckon even I could do that! :D


Not sure of the question, unless you are one of the few with non-arthritic 'Lambretta clutch hand syndrome'

I've seen the video & could do that, but for a tenner off eBay, I have hardened & ground rack & pinion set that will fit when I make a top hat bush to fit the rack & modify the pinion by reducing the diameter, or enlarge the existing cover holes.

As for the commercially available conversions, there is the CASA version & CST's. The latter would be my choice & I don't think Martin is making a "huge profit"

Any profiteering is the result of current scooterists wanting bling in the form of engine adornment of parts that will wear out quickly, or buying standard industrial bearings & chains from dealers rather than power transmission specialists or pistons that are no better than OEM Jetski, Kawasaki, Suzuki or Yamaha etc etc

That said, it's all a matter of personal choice. I put my faith & trust in a Serveta rear hub any day & can keep the provision of interchangeable wheels, front to back. Others chose an Octopus rear hub because it somehow instils in them that eight fixings are better. High powered cars get away with only five M12 fine fixings on a much, much smaller PCD & have something like ten times the torque available to us.

Others have a powerful engine, uprated brakes, sticky tyres with sport suspension & then, they fit a box exhaust. Jeez! We grounded ours in the 70's with the only tyres available which @ best were dire!
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:12 pm

The clutch is now 6 plate, with 1.5, 2 x 1.2mm, 2 x 1.0mm and LI 2.5mm top plate. I think that I could probably run standard springs in this, but I'll see how it feels at the 'bars when it's installed. If it's as easy as my 5plate with bgm springs I'll just leave it as it is; that one is 2 finger operation; you could just use one finger if you were trying to prove a point but that's just a bit weird. Not sure what I was doing wrong, but I think it was the long bent tangs fouling each other. It only has straight tangs on the steels now as they're not necessary with the deep spider.

Anyway, that's the engine finished really apart from the exhaust manifold which I'll turn down over the weekend.



Time to start on the frame and forks.
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:16 pm

So, the engine is finished and ready to put in the frame. Nothing particularly interesting, but we all like pictures of newly built motors.
Image

Image

Never used a 4 stud manifold before. I like it.
Image
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:37 am

The remade disc hub presented a few problems.

Firstly, the anti-rattle spring was way too tight on the pins. In the past, I've had this cause a feeling like the disc was severely warped. So I reduced the tension in it using a vice. You need to have a few goes, rotating the apring in order to keep its roundness, but pretty easy. It now goes on and off the pins far more easily.

Image

Next the nuts wouldn't go onto the spindle. Initially I thought the nuts were the wrong pitch and bought some new ones, but no different. A bit stupid really when I should have just checked with my thread gauge. Anyway, I bought a die nut and tap to sort them. The die nut would not run down the spindle at all. Maybe a poor quality die nut? I ran the tap through the nuts and that was enough to get them on. They're a little tight but nothing to worry about.

Then, when i tried to fit the hub, the spindle was too long. So I had to cut about 5mm off each end. A reet pain the backside as I didn't have the correct hacksaw blades so it took a new blade for each cut. By sheer coincidence I was building a hub for a friend and had to do his as well.
Image
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:13 pm

Hey Dickie ;)

That image of the spindle poking through the fork link concerns me as there appears to be very little of it for the hub nuts to engage with :?

Hopefully, the spindle needs pulling through the disc hub a tad more & all will be well.....
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:42 pm

Warkton Tornado No.1 wrote:Hey Dickie ;)

That image of the spindle poking through the fork link concerns me as there appears to be very little of it for the hub nuts to engage with :?

Hopefully, the spindle needs pulling through the disc hub a tad more & all will be well.....


Mark, it's an optical illusion. I was actually trying to show that there is too much thread and that the dome nut is bottoming out before applying tension to the spindle. I think you're looking at the end of the hub locating stud that locks into the disc link.
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:07 pm

dickie wrote:
Warkton Tornado No.1 wrote:Hey Dickie ;)

That image of the spindle poking through the fork link concerns me as there appears to be very little of it for the hub nuts to engage with :?

Hopefully, the spindle needs pulling through the disc hub a tad more & all will be well.....


Mark, it's an optical illusion. I was actually trying to show that there is too much thread and that the dome nut is bottoming out before applying tension to the spindle. I think you're looking at the end of the hub locating stud that locks into the disc link.


Yep. As soon as I zoomed in I could 'unblend' the conglomeration of the various bits :oops:

The torque screw tricked me as well as the boss for the damper mount. That & the fact that the assembly is so disgustingly clean........ ;)
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:57 pm

Nothing special about the following image, I just think it looks nice. Rich Oswald and a couple of others saw a previous image and pointed out that my tank wasn't straight so I measured it; it was 3.4 degrees out, now 0.1. Sorry, best I could manage.

Image

I've learned a few things about cable types and routing. So I don't follow the conventional routes. I've also found the clutch cable from chiselspeed to be excellent and no cable ties either. My 175 clutch is 2 finger with uprated springs using this method.
Image
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:44 pm

As usual, the brake pedal was wobbly. Wasn't the worst I've seen but I'm trying to build a really nice bike, not just an ok one.

So I decided to replace the pin with a brake shoe post as shown on sluk website. As a guide, my pin was 11.7mm and the brake shoe post that I used is 11.95mm.

I differed slightly from sluk technique as I drilled first. The reason being that there was a grease way down the centre of the pin, so I wanted to use that as a guide to make sure my drilled hole was central; worked well.

Image

Drilling was a lot more difficult than I anticipated, the steel was very hard.

I marked the cut so that the edge for the brake lever was in the same position, plus a maybe 0.5mm to allow shimming either direction.
Image

The cut was a pain too and I added gaffer tape to protect my shiny new paint.
Image

Job jobbed. A load of copper slip and zero pedal wobble now.
Image
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:11 pm

Nice tidy work & workmanship :D

I knew about the fix using brake shoe pivots only in recent years. Prior to that, when relocating a brake shoe pivot rearward (not the type that is engine mounted. I wanted my rear set to be chassis mounted) I used one of these that I 'borrowed' from work:

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/socket-should ... AQQAvD_BwE

Same principle, bigger (M10) thread but omits the circlip.

I think your method is more in keeping with what Innocenti would have done though. It looks as if it was originally done like that ;)

BTW. Nice plug cap. Quite refreshing to see something different to the obligitary NGK all encompassing type, not that there is anything wrong with them.......if suppression is required.
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:50 pm

Nice idea that Mark. I'd have done that if I'd known earlier.

I've actually got some of those unbrako bolts as they're perfect for fitting GSXR750 calipers to ZXR400 without any mods. I'll bet you never get to make use of that nugget of wisdom :lol:
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:51 am

dickie wrote:Nice idea that Mark. I'd have done that if I'd known earlier.

I've actually got some of those unbrako bolts as they're perfect for fitting GSXR750 calipers to ZXR400 without any mods. I'll bet you never get to make use of that nugget of wisdom :lol:


You never know ;)

Link pivot bolts can also be substituted by (wait for it.....) hexagon socket shoulder bolts. I've used them for donkeys on racers, but you need to ensure the threaded end & inner nut do not cause issues with valve stems. That said, easy 'upgrade' especially with a low profile flanged nut like a 'Jet' ype.

You watch. They'll all be doing it now...... :lol:
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby jonw » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:52 am

Are you using the capacitor to supply ancillaries?
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Re: LI special - swansong project?

Postby dickie » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:22 pm

jonw wrote:Are you using the capacitor to supply ancillaries?

Yes, and no. I run full DC system and the capacitor is just there as a smoothing load for the entire system as I don't use a battery. I don't need a battery so it would just be something to maintain.

What I mean by full DC is that lighting and ignition are fed by the same 12V DC supply, like in a car.

Sorry if I've patronised you, but most lambretta folk don't know what I mean by full DC.
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