new 200 set up

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

^

There's two schools of thought as to whether you oil a filter, or not, to compound the issue as well. Bell advocates that you do (I haven't yet with this one) using BelRay oil filter oil or waterproof gear oil (Castrol ST90) but that's fine on a bike/kart where you have a dedicated filter housing.

In 'our' scenario, the oil can act as a dirt magnet rather than just augmenting the filter's ability, so my 'jury' is out @ the moment, especially as the rear wheel & cooling system act like a whisk to move the muck about.

Getting further off track (from poor old peejay's OP!) I found myself in a similar quandary with nylon lined outer cables, whether to lube or not. Other 'non scooter' Forums discuss the same subject. Lubricants can make the nylon swell, but, hang on a moment, what containers are oils supplied in? Modern cables are great for a while, then they start to go as stiff as the type they replace! So, recently I've started to use an hydraulic oiler with some Redline fully synthetic oil. Only time will tell....

[peejay]

hi guys
that breathsweet set up looks good


here's mine

GP elbow - 40mm dia





ram air filter - 75mm dia. X 100mm high

internal - 45mm dia X 80mm high





S/S connecting collar 38mm





i had assumed that the volume of air was more than enough, is the S/S collar the problem?

[bluebob]

Peejay,as others have said you have the right kit for what you want.(but let us all know if you find a 70mph "Quiet "lambretta. Just a thought ,as you need to find whats holding it back,why not strip it down,check and rebuild,recheck the squish ect,but while your at it can you not get the upgrade meteor piston at the discounted exchange rate from mb.Rebuild,reseal,new piston,sort your filter ,be like new and save yerself a few bob!

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

As I've said, my Rapido is not massively tuned (possibly de-tuned to an extent with the 61 mm stroke) but it is Ø71 mm bore so that 241.5 cc is some volume. Another thought has just occurred to me in that although my exhaust is also my DIY Clubman type, perhaps the long, reverse cone & Ø 25 mm bore tailpipe are making it more efficient than I'd given it credit for. No doubt, peejay will be familiar with what it is like as I've emulated what we ran in the 70's in Group Four (long front cone, gutted box, inch out the side for ground clearance, long reverse cone) but this has a large muffler as the VW tailpipe was ridiculously noisy.

Perhaps I should be grateful that bellows (such as others get away with) will not allow the engine to 'pick up' without rolling off the throttle because it could be some indication of the willingness of the state of tune to want to rev & go, although it is very flexible & ride-able without a fierce power band. The DIY elbow & filter has definitely been worth all the effort it has taken to evolve through the process of trial & error.

The more I reflect on this whole issue, the more I begin to realise the Rapido is very underrated in some people's minds. That's not meant as an adverse comment about the kit we're all trying to help with, BTW!

[peejay]

The DIY elbow & filter has definitely been worth all the effort it has taken to evolve through the process of trial & error.

can you give me details of what you have actually done, i would like to replicate this and give it a go

[Adam_Winstone]

Peejay,

Have you tried it with the current filter off? If so, did it make much of a difference?

Adam

[peejay]

Peejay,

Have you tried it with the current filter off? If so, did it make much of a difference?

Adam

hi Adam, it's never been run without the filter, i'm paranoid about sucking a boulder in!

[rossclark]

You could pop a bit of tea strainer gauze over it to try it.

[Adam_Winstone]

Bugger! I typed out a response and my connection dropped.

My suggestion is not so that you can start to run it without a filter, rather it is so that you can make informed decisions about what to try next. If the filter is a big restriction then removing hose and filter should make an immediate difference to how the bike performs. NB: I'm not suggesting that you simply remove it and then try to beat the record around your local ring-road! Testing without the filter should be carried out sensibly and in the knowledge that the increased air-flow could make you run weaker than you have been with the filter on, but sensible testing should not be an issue. Indeed, if you do find that it suddenly runs very much better then you can always try running with the choke on, which simulates running with considerably richer jetting.

This is not a recommendation for doing miles, rather, a way of getting instant feedback as to whether your current filter system is holding you back.

Adam

[peejay]

thanks guys
this is my plan early next week when i have more time.
i have just fitted a new plug and cap which has certainly improved things all round.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

The DIY elbow & filter has definitely been worth all the effort it has taken to evolve through the process of trial & error.

can you give me details of what you have actually done, i would like to replicate this and give it a go

I'll dig out the details when I can & PM you, but Adam raises a valid point of briefly trying without your current set-up (of hose & filter) because that's how I started out with my objective, if you understand me (not everybody does.... )

[mainstand]

On my iron 225 I cut out the front of an old foam filter & stuck it to the inside of the side panel using no more nails so it surrounds the mouth of the carb when in situ. Worked ok for the last three years doing 3 million miles or so.

[peejay]

hi guys
over recent months the compression had dropped, starting was harder and it wouldn't tickover on no throttle.

a month ago i stripped the top end, rings were shot, bore and piston ok.

new rings fitted, starts ok and ticks over.

when it was first run in from new and dyno'ed the readings were :

max power 12.98 bhp at 7010 rpm

max torque 10.14 ft/lbs at 6166

squish is 1.2mm

max speed was 62 mph over 1 mile of motorway.

deffo running rich at the mo so need to do something about this and test more when it's not raining

[Adam_Winstone]

Peejay,

Watch out for confusing running rich with being strangled for air flow! To better explain this…

A pal of mine did 1000 miles of reliable running in by the time that he actually managed to get it to a dyno centre (recognised scooter dealer) to have the ballpark jetting confirmed. Prior to this I had pointed out to him that he had an issue with his configuration not supplying sufficient air-flow to the carb; 26mm PHBH, standard air hose connected to standard airbox, seriously restricted by a near flat slope-back seat… the front hinge of which allowed very limited flow to the intake.

Said pal put the bike on the dyno and the dyno operator saw that the AFR (Air Fuel Ratio) was reading rich so went weaker on the jetting, continuing to weaken until the ratio was correct. HOWEVER, this was a case of the air-flow being seriously restricted by the configuration, meaning that whereas he was previously getting enough fuel but insufficient air, the fuel was also now being restricted to the point that the ratio (Air/Fuel) was now in balance… now not getting sufficient Air OR Fuel. The result being the first seizure of this motor on the way home! When he phoned me to discuss it, it was obvious that the jetting was now way too weak, regardless of being in balance with the restricted air-flow.

Thankfully, his seizure (after spending £100 on the dyno session) was the catalyst required for him to come to me so that I could temporarily fit a remote filter, rejet the carb, do a few road tests/adjustments, then let him take it out for a spin…. CHALK & CHEESE! He bought his own remote filter system and then took it to a different dyno centre and the bike became very reliable, easier to ride/drive, and performance was massively improved! He then had approx. 5 years very happy service from this bike before selling it to fund another Lambretta project. During that time the bike was very well respected in the local scene, respected for its reliability and performance.

I recount the above as I’m still not convinced that your RAMAIR filtration (and/or standard air hose) is not the limiting factor for your bike’s performance. I’ve still not really reviewed the rest of the configuration but your figures (BHP and MPH) seem very low for your top-end.

Adam

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

^ Further to Adam's remarks (& his earlier suggestion), it has to be worth a run up the road without the elbow/filter fitted, especially as the carburation is already running rich, so very likely a brief 'safe' test to prove one way or another....

[NorthernJordan]

I would suggest that something is restricting the performance significantly.

I run a RT230, 60mm crank, 110 rod, cyclone gearbox, 30mm phbh open mouth, NK rally exhaust, M-tech ignition and carefully set up port timings etc.. This set up is superb for my own needs.

It only puts out a modest 20hp on the dyno but the real world performance is excellent! With gps speeds when two up with rally luggage knocking on 80mph, I can't complain.

I know the nature of my set up is very different as in the fact I use an expansion etc.. But I do most of my riding two up which I would have thought this would have negated the massive difference with the final product. IMO the cylinder should be able to deliver what you want relatively easily based on my own experiences, so I would be looking at the set up as a whole rather than singling out the cylinder.

Rapidos and a good stage 4 can also be excellent, but again they still need the right components that complement the end goal.

[peejay]

^ Further to Adam's remarks (& his earlier suggestion), it has to be worth a run up the road without the elbow/filter fitted, especially as the carburation is already running rich, so very likely a brief 'safe' test to prove one way or another....

agree i have to try this, i intend to remove the filter and fit a fine mesh cover to the GP elbow next

[Adam_Winstone]

Peejay,

If you've git running boards and panels fitted, just take the filter and hose off to try it as there is very little chance of anything finding its way past these during the duration of you taking it out for a short test ride. Then again, your bike so I'm happy for you to follow your heart/head about trying it open.

Adam

[Adam_Winstone]

I would suggest that something is restricting the performance significantly.

I run a RT230, 60mm crank, 110 rod, cyclone gearbox, 30mm phbh open mouth, NK rally exhaust, M-tech ignition and carefully set up port timings etc.. This set up is superb for my own needs.

It only puts out a modest 20hp on the dyno but the real world performance is excellent! With gps speeds when two up with rally luggage knocking on 80mph, I can't complain.

I know the nature of my set up is very different as in the fact I use an expansion etc.. But I do most of my riding two up which I would have thought this would have negated the massive difference with the final product. IMO the cylinder should be able to deliver what you want relatively easily based on my own experiences, so I would be looking at the set up as a whole rather than singling out the cylinder.

Rapidos and a good stage 4 can also be excellent, but again they still need the right components that complement the end goal.

^... Totally agree, something in the mix (perhaps more than one element) is restricting this motor and not allowing it to perform as it should. Filter and hose removal is simply my first suggestion as it is a very quick and simple test (take it off and try it without). Once that is tested and ruled out, other ideas for testing could follow up.

[peejay]

cheers guys for all your comments

filter will be removed in the morning for a brief blatt up the road