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New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

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New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Adam_Winstone » Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:10 am

It’s great, and much appreciated, when a dealership takes note of requests from its customers. Rimini Lambretta Centre are not the only dealer that fall into this camp, however, there are plenty of dealers that don’t; simply selling on whatever they happen to have on the shelf. In this case I approached RLC with a specific request for a bespoke part and they heard my case, listened to my reasoning, then said that they would see what they could do. Next thing I know, they’ve done it and made the bespoke part available to me… WOW!

Among those of you that may have invested in Sticky’s new ‘Lambretta Kits Book’, the keen-eyed may have noted that he states that all kits were tested using the fairly new Ducati Casatronic ignition, which he was very complimentary about. However, those that really paid attention may have noticed that he undertook all testing with a static ignition advance of 18 degrees BTDC (page 47), which caught my eye as the Casatronic ignition is not offered with static ignition as an option, rather, all off the shelf options come with a pre-set advance/retard ignition profile (Standard, Sport or Race). Whilst these profiles, determined by their respective CDIs, suit virtually all of the motor configurations on the road, I have a motor that is somewhat unusual and under certain conditions isn’t best suited to those advance/retard profiles.

So what is so different about my motor configuration…?

Well, nothing really, other than it is BIG cc and pulls a high top gear ratio at low RPM… and therein lies the issue; at low RPM the advance/retard function is in its early stages and the ignition timing is still relatively advanced. As we have all learnt in recent years, especially with the continued move towards hotter burning fuels, advanced ignition timing can easily lead to pinking, seizure or holed pistons. NB: The well conceived Casatronic profiles will avoid any such issues (subject to choosing the appropriate CDI for your engine spec’) and, to be honest, my request for a compatible static CDI is more about my own paranoia as it is about any issues; I have been running the Casatronic ‘Standard’ CDI for a while with no ill effects, although plug colour has looked a little light after periods of cruising; when the ignition timing is fairly advanced.

OK, to say that my motor is not unusual isn’t quite accurate. I run a self-configured Mugello 293cc motor (casing and crank from RLC, barrel machining and welding through Paul Baker at SRP), configured around a 72mm bore and 72mm stroke combination, running a 3.9:1 top gear ratio. As such my motor will be cruising at VERY low RPM, if riding with others at low speeds (e.g. Sunday rideout mode). Do note that this is relatively unusual as most tuned/kitted engines run more port durations and tend to run at higher RPM than standard, which is where advance/retard ignitions really come into their own. The advance/retard of the ‘Standard’ CDI is perfectly suited to the requirements of standard engines, however, motors (like mine) that are configured to cruise at less than standard revs will not benefit from an adv/ret function and may start to run hot whilst cruising. The new generation of expansions with more power at lower RPM (e.g. CST 3) will also restrict how far up the RPM range a motor rises, thereby limiting the ignition’s retard function.

If you look at the excellent graph provided by Ducati, which allows comparison of the Standard and Sport ignition profiles, you can very easily that the majority of retard function (both CDIs) happens between 4,500 & 8,000 RPM. If you have a tuned engine because you typically ride it at speed, all when and good, however, take a moment to look at the graph and consider what the ignition advance will be if running at 4,500, 5,000, 6,000 and 7,000 RPM… at higher top ratios and a range of speeds:


4.8:1 4.6:1 4.4:1

4,500rpm = 24° / 26.5°(Standard/Sport) 47mph 50mph 51mph

5,000rpm = 23° / 26°(Standard/Sport) 53mph 55mph 57mph

6,000rpm = 21° / 25°(Standard/Sport) 63mph 66mph 68mph

7,000rpm = 19° / 21°(Standard/Sport) 74mph 77mph 80mph


So, a Sunday rideout cruise of 50mph or a group touring speed set by a standard LI150 (c.a. 50-55mph) would see these configurations cruising at an ignition advance anywhere between 26.5 and 23 degrees, which on today’s hotter burning fuels see engine temperature starting to rise. Indeed, an EGT or CHT gauge will often show temperatures rising when trying to cruise at lower speeds. Whilst it may seem counterintuitive, the way to bring running temps down under these conditions is to drop a gear and run at higher RPM, which is uncomfortable for all members of said touring group and rider alike; engine revving hard and loud pipe saving even more lives (LOL).

… to cut back to the chase…


My engine, with its low revving and high top ratio is ‘the perfect storm’ for encouraging heat, whilst cruising at low RPM. What my motor could really benefit from is a lower firing point at lower RPM, which takes us back into the realms of a static ignition timing of around 18 or 17 degrees (give or take a degree or so for compression ratio variable)… a direct reflection of the static ignition timing used by Sticky for the testing of all kits in his new book. Indeed, Sticky was the first person that I approached over this and he took up my cause with RLC.

Fast forward 2 months and RLC have made available a static CDI for the Casatronic that fires at a static 17 degrees (strobe to double check if you source one); requested by me as it is suitable for a wide range of standard and tuned engines (remember that ALL kits were tested at 18 degrees for Sticky’s kits book), and a little accurate filing of the stator holes will allow a couple of degrees of adjustment in either direction (19-15), which covers the range that virtually all motors will run on today (standard to fast road tune).

RESULT - On the road my motor is now equally happy throughout the range and the plug colour indicates that it is running reassuringly cooler at lower RPM cruising speeds. As I said previously, the existing range of adv/ret profiles (CDIs) that are already in circulation are perfectly suited for the full range of road to race motors, however, this new addition of a static CDI simply widens the choice for those running oddball motors (like mine) or for those who have decades of experience running static ignitions and want to stick with what they know… I too am a creature of habit.

PS – 2 months on (CDI performing faultlessly) and RLC have just informed me that this static CDI option is now in production and they expect it to be ready in 2-3 weeks. I have no idea of the price and/or other ordering details so please liaise with RLC if you want to get your hands on one.

Adam
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Covboy » Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:49 am

Great Information Adam - THANK YOU !
Curiously, I have an overheating issue @ 6000 - 7000 rpm on my GT240 which is suspected to be due to timing (I'm running the Ducati casatronic + sport CDI , 4.7:1).
Your post below makes perfect sense and I think has given me another avenue to explore
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Adam_Winstone » Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:27 pm

^... glad that it was useful to you.

Yes, it could well be that your GT kit is a bit of a mismatch for the Sport CDI profile, which could have suited the Standard CDI curve better (cooler at lower RPM) but this new static CDI would allow you to set it once and know exactly where you're firing, regardless of RPM.

OK, in many ways, returning to static is perhaps a slightly backward step, however, many people are happy with static and know what they're doing. Returning to static on a high revving machine could well lose a load of bottom end and/or run hot again at top RPM but it really is a case of 'horses for courses' and the static profile seems best suited for my old nag.

Good luck with getting your issues resolved. You've got a great array of very good components and I'm guessing that a few tweaks to setup will result in a fantastic and very reliable motor.
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby ULC Soulagent » Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:38 am

Great info Adam and will probably look into buying one as I like all avenues too be explored in getting the prefect cruising engine ;)
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Adam_Winstone » Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:33 pm

^... like
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Martin s » Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:46 pm

I've got both "standard" and "sport" of these. Was running a "sport" cdi until expansion snapped, then bought a "standard." now want to run ex box ST on it and wondered which might be suitable (not knowing the "standard" was variable too.) As these STs are half clubman, half expansion I think. Or just try it?

Cheers.
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Knowledge » Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:20 am

This might be one of those instances where a visit to a dyno might offer you the best answer.

When you find the answer, please share it with the class of ‘22. Thanks
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:20 pm

I have only just read this Post & find it interesting. I'm not tempted to tease by mentioning the fact that OEM points based ignitions offer precisely what has been achieved because I can acknowledge that an electronic set-up may be adaptable to change static firing points. Hopefully, my previous comments concerning the reliability of electronic kits versus OEM can hardly be disputed, but the choice remains that of the individual........almost. There is a lot of 'following the herd' in scootering.

Despite my misgivings about electronic road ignition set-ups, I have used them for decades with tuned motors, my first being Motoplat internal rotor with advance/retard. It took some time to understand how best to enable such an ignition to contribute to making an engine perform better as it came with some notes that ultimately had to be disregarded.

To gain some kind of understanding of just why a two stroke motor might need ignition retarding is probably best gained by reading a good tuning book, but IMO the carburettor's fuel delivery is key. In general, low speeds of fuel delivery will have larger globules within the mist which become finer globules as the speed increases. A mist with finer globules will have a much greater surface area, thereby burning quicker & requiring less ignition advance.

In the particular incidence of an engine where the remit is to function @ low speeds, the choice & size of carburettor is important. That prompts me to ask how are you getting along with the Polini carburettor, Adam?

My other observation concerns overheating. With a low speed engine, overheating cannot surely all be attributed to any ignition advance without considering the efficiency of the fan in an air cooled motor.

Ultimately, It strikes me that any configuration of engine would benefit from a bespoke programmed ignition to suit it's characteristics, something that has been available in other fields of two stroke tuning for a long time.
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Adam_Winstone » Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:20 pm

The Polini carb didn't stay on the bike long as the limited component range didn't allow me to jet it in on the road, nor on the dyno. I decided to try a PHBH that I had available and could instantly jet it somewhere near, with it performing pretty well.


Since making that initial swap, I've continued developing the configuration, including a number of different ignition configurations (2 kits, 5 variable ignition profiles), 3 pipes, 34 VSHB, 30 PHBH, 2 different heads, 3 gearing changes and 3 dyno sessions. I've done lots of road miles, testing each configuration change, with dyno sessions at key times when I wanted to quantify the results of the developments.

... ditching the Polini carb for something with a greater component range was probably my biggest step forward.
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:55 pm

It seems inherent that tuned Lambretta cylinders tend toward huge inlet durations which can often be improved with longer stroke crankshafts &/or adding a reed valve.

That said, I still consider the PWK a far superior carburettor to the PH range.

Dialling in the PWK follows basic principles but the rule of thumb will be low 30's pilot for piston ported & 50ish for a reed valve engine. To try & workaround that with different needles &/or atomisers is never going to work.
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Adam_Winstone » Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:53 pm

I appreciate that you rate these carbs, however, I spent a small fortune on the range of spares that is available for them and invested a lot of time, plus a fair chunk of time/money with an extremely competent dyno operator. The results were not great, regardless of which way we worked around jetting out problem areas. Don't get me wrong , it was useable but always a compromise. Whereas the Dellorto was so much easier to Jet in, simply because of the much wider range of components/adjustment.

I'm certainly not intending to suggest that the Polini/Keihin carbs are not up to it, just that the wider range of Dellort components makes the job of fine tuning that much easier.
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby GP Kevo » Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:23 pm

This CDI sounds like exactly what I need: Running a high miles ported TS1 "Annhilator" with Wiseco KX250 piston and normally ride hard with quick acceleration and blasts on the freeway. I had set the timing at 17 BTDC. Ignition is original AF electronic light flywheel with a blue Ducati vespa type CDI from around 2012 or so. My mate rebuilt the bottom end and then reassembled and set timing at 18. I had been riding around 80 mph on the LA freeway for maybe 10 minutes and holed the piston. Previously, in Europe, with ignition set at 17, I was able to ride motorways for hours and hours. In USA I use octane booster to bring octane to 93 (98 RON).

I've been told that the blue Ducati CDIs auto advance two degrees after 2500 RPM. I had been unaware of this, but I had noticed some wavering in timing when checking with a strobe light way back when I first set up the ignition. I would prefer a CDI that wouldn't waver in timing at all and would be rock solid at whatever timing I choose.

When you say that this new Static CDI is 17 static, do you mean that you dialed your stator to choose 17 BTDC as firing point, or that the CDI has a firing point that is already 17? It's a little confusing when reading their description of the CDI on the casalambretta website.
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:34 am

Having followed this Post by Adam, I understand what it was that he wanted to achieve, whilst still remaining fairly open minded concerning the specifics involved with the ignition requirements for a a Lambretta engine.

The main concern that remains is the quality of aftermarket 'Lambretta specific' specific ignitions. Anybody that buys into Indian produced set-ups can no longer elude anybody into thinking that to do so guarantees some kind of reliability over a well set up OEM ignition. Otherwise, the problems associated with Indian stators would not be such a regular feature on this Forum concerning the problems with their quality, robustness & outright failures.

However, as I am not a complete Dinosaur, I know through experience the advantages to be had from a system that allows for rapid advance/retard as I was using such Motoplat ignitions in the 80's.

The dilemma for selecting a reliable electronic ignition set-up is somewhat of a minefield, given the choice available.

A recent 'static' system is discussed in this Post, but there have been others around for decades. Most obvious is the ultra reliable Piaggio based system which formed the basis for the first AFR lightweight ignitions.

Almost certainly, none of them will be truly 'static' as there is an inherent tendency to advance a small amount.

This phenomena is something overcome by timing ignition in the desired range with a stroboscope. However, I will take the opportunity to just mention that OEM based points ignitions have a tendency to a slight retardation.... ;)

To gain a better understanding of ignition systems with particular application to two stroke engines there are specific books, but, in layman's terms, I would urge anybody wavering upon the decision to buy The complete Spanner's Lambretta Kit Book by Sticky. The whole mix of air, fuel & ignition are discussed simply because of their inevitable consequences upon the final outcome of any modified engine. Besides which, it is a damn good read.... :D
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Re: New Casatronic (by Ducati) Static CDI Option

Postby Adam_Winstone » Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:53 pm

GP Kevo

These CDIs are only intended for use with the Ducati Casatronic system so you wouldn't be able to just substitute the CDI for use with your existing system.

The Casatronic has holes, rather than adjustment slots, which is intended to ensure that the position is fixed (no adjustment) so that the electronic wizardry delivers a firing profile that is controlled by the respective CDI choice; Race CDI, Sport CDI or Standard CDI. If you want to change the firing profile then you have to change the CDI, with no adjustment being possible.

HOWEVER, this new static CDI is pre-programmed to fire at 17 degree when used with the standard stator... remembering that the stator has fitting holes only, so no adjustment... but it is very easy to rework the stator's base to elongate these holes so that they then allow adjustment in the traditional way; rotating the stator to adjust firing point. With 17 degrees being the set firing point for the Static CDI, it takes very little elongation of holes to get a range that most Lambrettas will be happy with.

In your case though, I'd initially look to adjust your existing system to retard the timing slightly, which may actually ease starting and run just as reliably as it did before, just strobe it at the revs that you like to ride at.

I hope that the above makes sense.

Cheers

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