Early TV175 SIII - where to get parts?

[Knowledge]

Hi,

I have acquired an early (May 62) TV175 which I intend to preserve.

It has the early style headlamp (but the rim is broken), 3 pin brake switch and the TV 4 pole DC style ignition switch, all of which need replacing.

Please can anyone suggest a TV specialist who might have these parts? I will be checking Rimini’s site shortly, but who else might stock such parts?

[steveg]

Sounds like a nice acquisition Martin.
I'd have a word with Disco Dez, Scootopia and maybe Keith Newman if you haven't already.
Be good to see some pics

[Knowledge]

Thanks for the suggestions Grunty.

The scoot will be making regular appearance in Jetset, but just at the moment I am trying to decide where to pitch the preservation. Do I stick with the 4 pole points ignition, or update it to a six pole, or even go electronic on it? Do I want to/have to renew the wiring loom, in which case do I need to change to a three pin brake pedal and use an alternative (later) ignition switch?

I hope that it will turn into an interesting three or perhaps four articles in Oily Rag. Unlike my usual Oily Rags, i will be looking backwards, rather than forwards.

It could be interesting

[dickie]

Personally, on something like that, I'd go as original as possible.

4 pole points.

The loom should be salvagable unless all the insulation has gone brittle in which case, you'd be left with little choice other than replacement.

Why do you need to replace the ignition switch, don't you have a key? I ask because these things are often replaced when they could be repaired. It doesn't always make sense to repair, but if you want total originality it can. I recently spent 2 days repairing an LI3 light switch that I could have replaced for a tenner.

Looking forward to the articles.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Personal choices often vary, but ultimately, common sense dictates.

For example. No doubt the tyres to be fitted will be safe, modern replacements. Who could argue with that?

Ignition, though? Is there any justifiable reason to go electronic on a 'preserved' machine? FFS nobody can claim that the Indian replacements are bought for reliability!

That is why, if anything, I would maintain points but would upgrade the voltage to 12 volt. That was a commonplace conversion in the period that the machine was first used.

As for the wiring loom, you are more than capable of testing it & making any necessary repairs. That way, we all get to glean the best wire grades, best terminations, sleeving etc

Similarly, the switches can be rebuilt without replacement, unless they are externally broken. Brake light switches are so simple to rebuild with so few consumable parts that the hardest element to fix is a worn plastic housing that can have a bespoke part to cure the slack pin hole or be plastic welded & redriled to suit.

An original will always be the only original particular to that machine is my belief in the case of repairable items. Only if proved otherwise should a replacement be sought & that should be OEM, not a replica.

[nickw]

Hiya Martin, also really depends on how anal you want to get with the bits needed. Some of the parts appear on eBay (eg stator and flywheel) because other people want to get rid and change to electronic. Sometimes get headlamp units on there as well. Not sure what early type refers to but TV headlamps etc fetch very good money. Personally the Scootopia headlamps are very good and value for money. At the moment 2nd hand parts seem to be quite expensive. With no parts fairs it is difficult finding the right bits for the right money. Steve has mentioned people I use frequently and there is also Swiss Tony who seems to have an abundance of parts both NOS and second hand. His prices do seem to be high compared to what I'm used to lol. As an example I think it was him with NOS GP legshield for sale at 900 quid. Amid the usual scallywags comments of 'How much' they sold quickly. There are TV specialists/collectors out there but it is finding them. Good Luck

[Storkfoot]

There are lots of different opinions on such matters. I tend to favour using as much original stuff as possible but I tend to drawn the line at electrical components.

I am no electrician but, in my experience, a six pole system is significantly more robust than a 4 pole which are hard work. Incidentally, I have a good six pole stator and flywheel which I know were working when they came off the 125 Special many years ago - yours if you want them.

Switches. I have successfully saved one or two but too often it is the rocker mechanism that is worn out and beyond saving. I’d suggest, if they look okay, try them but be prepared to buy new if there are any issues.

Loom. Well you can easily check for continuity but if the loom has not been used for years, issues can crop up under the sleeving quickly. Personally, I’d go for a new loom unless the one on the TV appears absolutely spot on with good continuity.

Finally, Carlos at Swiss Tony’s does have some good stuff and is definitely worth making contact with.

[Knowledge]

the switches can be rebuilt without replacement, unless they are externally broken. Brake light switches are so simple to rebuild with so few consumable parts that the hardest element to fix is a worn plastic housing that can have a bespoke part to cure the slack pin hole or be plastic welded & redriled to suit.

The issue with the ignition switch is that the barrel is missing. The switch is unique to the four pole TV model, so if I have to change the key switch to a six pole compatible one, then it calls into question the continued use of the four pole stator. The four pole flywheel may have lost much of its magnetism.

The brake light switch is currently a 2 pin item, but there are three wires present. I suspect that someone has replaced the 3pin switch with a 2 pin switch, without being able to accommodate the third bullet connector.

Ignition, though? Is there any justifiable reason to go electronic on a 'preserved' machine? FFS nobody can claim that the Indian replacements are bought for reliability!

That is why, if anything, I would maintain points but would upgrade the voltage to 12 volt. That was a commonplace conversion in the period that the machine was first used.

It is possible to make a reliable six pole electronics stator without reverting to Indian parts, though I have recently successfully converted a points 6v stator to a points 12v AC stator (four lighting coils wired in series).

[Knowledge]

I am no electrician but, in my experience, a six pole system is significantly more robust than a 4 pole which are hard work. Incidentally, I have a good six pole stator and flywheel which I know were working when they came off the 125 Special many years ago - yours if you want them.

I have to agree. The six pole flywheel and stator prevailed to th end of production, so they must have been better than the four pole, but I will try to save the four pole first. However, please hang onto your stator and flywheel. You might well be my saviour.

Switches. I have successfully saved one or two but too often it is the rocker mechanism that is worn out and beyond saving. I’d suggest, if they look okay, try them but be prepared to buy new if there are any issues.

Fortunately the rocker switch is in good order. Phew.

Finally, Carlos at Swiss Tony’s does have some good stuff and is definitely worth making contact with.

I have a feeling that I will be in touch with Carlos. Thanks for the lead.

[ToBoldlyGo]

Hi,

I have acquired an early (May 62) TV175 which I intend to preserve.

It has the early style headlamp.

Snap. I think mine is a May 62 model. I've even got the original Libretto with it. Although, it's in bits at the moment. I mean it to be my swansong.

How does the headlight differ? I wasn't aware there was a difference.

[Adam_Winstone]

Four pole points systems are pleasantly good, however, you must do something to resolve the issue of alloy fab coming loose on brass body! This can be avoided/resolved as easily as drilling and tapping 2 opposing screws between fins and into the body.

I'd read about such failures (Webster's tuning manual) but chose to ignore this, using a standard 4-pole system on a spare motor built up for Milan 97. Thankfully, the flywheel stopped me in my tracks whilst sorting the motor well before we set off, giving me time to resolve the problem. Just as well, as I ended up doing the rally 2-up on this motor after the big-end gave up on my intended motor!

Decent 4-pole systems are every bit as good as 6-pole.

[Knowledge]

Thanks Adam. ^

How does the headlight differ? I wasn't aware there was a difference.

Good news about your TV TBG. Perhaps we can share our experiences to mutual benefit.

Apparently, the headlight rim is a little different on the early TV’s. Sticky mentions this in para 2 of page 140 of the green edition. However, he suggests that the later version will fit if you can’t find a replacement. It sounds like a real TV anorak’s item to point out that you have the wrong headlight rim.

[Knowledge]

Next question.

Is the early TV SIII ignition switch the same as the ignition switch used on SII TV 4 pole systems? If so, would that be the “half-moon” style switch?

[vegansydney]

There is no documented evidence the 'half moon' switch was used on the early TV Series 3. That said, never say never with Innocenti production.

[Knowledge]

Fair comment, but you have to wonder why Innocenti would commission a switch manufacturer to build an SIII version of the switch when the SII version already existed.

Any one else got any thoughts?

[ToBoldlyGo]

Yes, the half moon on the ignition switch was another part that they didn't need. I imagine it made it much easier to manufacture standard switches which could be used across the range. You see this sort of saving throughout the entire run of production.

[Knowledge]

TBG,

Please can you confirm thar the four pole TV173 SIII’s had half moon ignition switches, or their own version of the four pole switch without a half moon?

Sorry, I’m getting a bit pedantic now.

[nickw]

Martin, as far as I know it was only the TV175 series 2 with these half moon flaps. They are fairy rare and expensive to buy when they do emerge. If the S3 had them I would expect more to turn up. 19281220 is the part number for the S2 switch and the parts catalogue does not show the half moon. Might be worth comparing number to S3 switch (see below) I found this info last night. God knows where it came from but doesn't seem 100% correct because the parts numbers are different the key numbers are the same. I don't know enough to comment lol.

Ignition locks 19281220 for Lambretta TV175 Series 2 Models

Elesa / Becme from No. 640 to No. 649

Ignition locks 19781040 for Lambretta TV175 Series 3 Models fitted with 4 Pole flywheel magneto system

Ignition locks 19781050 for Lambretta TV175 Series 3 Models fitted without battery

Ignition locks 19781040 for Lambretta TV175 Series 3 Models fitted with 6 Pole flywheel magneto system

Elesa / Becme from No. 640 to No. 649*
Grabor from No. 540 to No. 549*

* These keys are the same / interchangeable i.e. No. 540 = 640

[ToBoldlyGo]

TBG,

Please can you confirm thar the four pole TV173 SIII’s had half moon ignition switches, or their own version of the four pole switch without a half moon?

Sorry, I’m getting a bit pedantic now.

Sorry Knowledge. Only just seen this. My S3 is probably identical to yours and the ignition didn't have the half moon switch. I think it must have been dropped with the S2. Mind you, it's been so long since I stripped it with a view to restoring it, but I do remember that it had the S2 light switch.

[Knowledge]

Thanks guys. I have been meaning to ring Carlos at Swiss Tony’s all week, but life keeps getting in the way.

More once I have spoken to Carlos.