New 8-stud Lambretta hub from Casa Lambretta

[Sticky]

Revealed exclusively a week or so ago.

Based on an Innocenti mould, internally strengthened and with a dedicated 8-point-fixing tubeless alloy wheel rim to match. More info to follow on SLUK.

[Sticky]

[rossclark]

Designed to work with the original layshaft and horrible locking plate?

Could do with a layshaft redesign that let you use a positive locking mechanism like a cap and split pin.

[Tractorman]

I suppose there is no reason why you cannot drill the layshaft and find a castellated nut, perhaps a rollpin maybe be better than a split pin.

[Mike Davis]

I suppose there is no reason why you cannot drill the layshaft and find a castellated nut, perhaps a rollpin maybe be better than a split pin.

Except when you need to get the hub off on the side of the road and dont have a drift etc, split pin more practical and wont come of if installed correctly, more likely to have pliers to hand etc

[Sticky]

New splined layshaft and hub also coming soon from Casa Lambretta, but still with the old locking plate system from the prototypes we've seen at SLUK. Would be nice to see that updated too because it is a pain.

[soullad]

Used to remember rounding off the splines in the rear hubs of a Suzuki T5 190 ... So nothing is ideal I guess. Definitely an improvement thou.

[Sticky]

Personally I 'don't mind the cone fit because there's zero play in it, but with splines it's hard to have none at all, but at least they are looking at options so you'll have choice.

[Knowledge]

What problems are Casa trying to solve here?

Are they saying that four studs break too easily? Surely studs break because people don't check that the nuts are tight and the rims cut through the thread. Will that problem be eliminated by fitting an extra 4 studs? I think not. Four extra studs do not compensate for a lack of maintenance.

And who makes the 8 hole rims?

And while I'm on my high horse, what is this business with the new splined lay shafts? I assume that it works in conjunction with the original cone? In which case, why are these small splines better than the olds splines. After all, the splines only locates the hub, it doesn't secure it. That is the job of the cone.

Are Casa inventing replacement parts that we don't really need?

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Taper fit drives are a very good engineering solution used widely across many industries. Milling & drilling machines rely on Morse tapers as do many most Motorcycle manufacturers to drive their rotors to generate electrical power.

The problem with Innocenti's original solution may have been compromised over the years with the taper cone drive to the rear hub.

It is my belief that the accuracy in machining,the materials selected & hardness may have deviated somewhat from the original brief over the years.

For instance, the cones that I have acquired of late will always have evidence of being used with their burrs from the layshaft splines & I can't help but wonder if the original Innocenti cones were of a more robust material &/or harder in the bore to suit.

So, I would suggest that the quality of the cones may not be as good as originals in an area that is not so easy to check.

Having said all of that, I'm not sure why an eight stud arrangement is required to bolt a rim to a hub.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.....

[Sticky]

Are Casa inventing replacement parts that we don't really need?

I think the project started to make something strong enough for the 50+hp Casa/BSG 305 engine, but lets be honest. I know people who've broken hubs and layshafts with stock engines so there are certainly weak links to solve.

Broken layshafts have been the cause of several accidents that I know of and at least one death, so to say that there is not a problem is daft.

Whether this is the cure will only be proved in time, but is it not better to applaud someone having a go than getting on a high horse?

Casa will make the 8-stud wheel.

Would I be happier with 8-studs rather than 4 on a tuned scooter? Yes, for sure.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Whatever has broken, there really is the need to quantify the problem.

Having never experienced a broken Innocenti layshaft personally, doesn't mean they never break. However, I would sooner trust an original Italian/Spanish OEM item than a pattern, whoever else may produce them.

Having experienced a broken Innocenti rear hub personally, doesn't mean they always break. However, I learnt that entrusting an original Italian OEM hub to be capable of hussling a 25 bhp Lambretta around any tight Welsh race circuit is asking too much of it. The only alternative that I have found personally trustworthy is an original Spanish OEM hub.

As for eight studs being used for the attachment of rims to hubs, I wonder which is under greater load. The rear hub with 50 bhp (well, the torque is unknown!) may be enough to risk shear of four correctly tightened M8 fasteners of undubious quality. But I doubt it, even though I haven't done the calculations. More likely, I feel, is the risk of shear to the the front hub/rim arrangement when teamed up with double discs.....

[Sticky]

It is worth mentioning that nobody is forcing anyone to buy this stuff...

[Mag]

It is worth mentioning that nobody is forcing anyone to buy this stuff...

Well said

[Knowledge]

It is worth mentioning that nobody is forcing anyone to buy this stuff...

Martin,

That is a very poor justification for producing something that might not be necessary.

I am aware of layshaft failures where the threaded section of the shaft has snapped off, allowing the intact hub to come off. I think this was what happened to Adam Winstone en route to Austria. This would indicate that the splines were not the cause of the failure, but i am sure Adam will clarify this point.

If the eight stud hub is simply a better manufactured hub, then that is great, but if we are heading down the route of incorporating an extra four studs just to ensure that we buy Casa rims and Casa layshafts, then I am less sure. I am rather anti Apple (even though I am typing this on an iPad - hypocrite) because of the way they sell you music that can only be played on Apple products, so isn't this the similar?

Martin

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Broken layshafts have been the cause of several accidents that I know of and at least one death, so to say that there is not a problem is daft.

If there has been a fatality due to a broken layshaft then that sounds as though there must have been an investigation.

If that were the case, surely the conclusion would have been made available for public information.

It is therefore conceivable that any inquiry would have looked into the factors involved:

Who manufactured the failed layshaft?
What was the age of the failed layshaft?
What was the reason for the failure of the layshaft?

The last point, in particular, would need to address various factors such as metallurgy, age related stresses, loading through the application of torque via the various factors involved (most notably the hub nut) fillet radii of the component et cetera.

If I appear cynical, that is not the case. There are many elements of the Lambretta that can be improved upon to make it more suitable for present day use.

However, despite the premium rates charged for most of the ‘improved’ replacements for the OEM parts, many have proved themselves to be inferior. Sprockets, sprocket bolts, wheel rims, rear hubs, ‘Race’ crankshafts, gearboxes & even crankcases are all items that have been subject to causing problems to many owners.

I can only imagine that those fortunate few to have never had a problem with Lambretta replacement parts must have climbed the ladder & pulled it up after themselves to think that it’s justifiable to say:

It is worth mentioning that nobody is forcing anyone to buy this stuff...

let alone:

Well said

[Tractorman]

I suppose there is no reason why you cannot drill the layshaft and find a castellated nut, perhaps a rollpin maybe be better than a split pin.

Except when you need to get the hub off on the side of the road and dont have a drift etc, split pin more practical and wont come of if installed correctly, more likely to have pliers to hand etc

I was thinking a split pin being soft could shear but maybe not. I suppose if you fitted a roll pin you might just carry a punch with you just in case.

[Scooterlam]

As I see it Rimini are developing a whole new engine producing 50 bhp in a claimed modest state of tune.
As with the DAC project, it has possibly exposed the limitations of the original engine design and they may not feel comfortable entrusting their reputation and possibly their customers lives to a Indian produced layshaft made from un-certifiable materials.
For them it may be necessary to go to these lengths. The cost of R&D and tooling must be huge and selling them as am upgrade replacement can only help to offset some of that cost.
Its a win win really, an option for those that buy into it and more original parts for those that don't.
This is pure supposition on my part and it may be they have too much time and money to waste over developing parts.

is an 8 stud rim necessary for 99%, of us possibly not. but well done to them for making the option available.

just wish someone would develop a retro fit in board rear disc brake.

[coaster]

I'm a bit confused as to why we are questioning the need for this innovation. It's surely just a new trick bit of kit. There are plenty of other parts available from several manufacturers that most would regard as overkill or just plain unnecessary, twin front discs on a road going scoot would be one. billet this and CNC that imho but no one is jumping up and down about those As Sticky mentioned, the 305 engine is the most likely reason it has been produced, snapping studs might be unlikely but elongated holes in the rims would be quite likely I should think. Buy, don't buy but just be happy businesses are still developing stuff for our shopping mopeds

Having said that, I have only just bought SIP rims for both my scoots so won't be looking to replace those anytime soon

[rossclark]

Anyone with a drill could make the wheel to fit.

As to a split pin, the other marque has used this means to prevent the nut coming loose for years and it's another mechanism that's quite common in many automotive hub fixings.

The constant application of setting the high torque required on the rear hub must, over time, lead to a degree of fatigue in layshaft. How many times has it been over tightened by some spanner with a scaffolding pole?

Innocenti last produced lay shafts in 1971, the Spanish factory gave it up in the early 90s. After that the majority of product available would be through either Indian SIL production, Indian aftermarket ( ) or Italian aftermarket. There are obviously some of the specialist dealers who've remanufactured them, you have to hope that they've all done their due diligence in specification and production.

In any case 30 - 50 year old parts under that amount of load for years on years have to be suspected unless you know their history.