TV175 S2 barn find

[RobTV175]

Firstly I'd like to thank you for this great forum. I had a thread running on the previous forum before it was lost 10 years ago, when I started stripping down my TV175 in preparation for a restoration.

The background is that while buying a small country house in Italy I was informed by the elderly vendors that there was an old scooter in the shed which belonged to their father and I was welcome to have. Under a collapsed roof (but still in the dry) and various items of junk I found a nearly complete (missing just its carb) TV175 series 2 with confirmed matching numbers. I couldn't quite believe my luck. I guess the owner who kept the house as a holiday home in the hills an hour from the city, had ridden up there and had issues with his carb meaning he took the carb back to be adjusted/repaired and never got round to fixing it.

I put air in the tyres and was towed with a rope the 5 miles back to where we were staying. I retuned the bike to the uk in the back of my estate where I proceeded to strip the bike, meticulously logging items as I went (with a lot of help from this forum). I then had a child, renovated a house, moved, renovated again, had 2 more children and then moved back to Italy. I am nearing the end of a house renovation here and have the space to start rebuilding my Lambretta. She has been stored in the dry and with plenty of oil in the sealed engine, ready for the inevitable day that I have the time and money for the rebuild.

I have been trying to work out exactly what it is that I want to achieve with the rebuild. I would like something at the end of the day that is very reliable and useable 2 up for pottering to town and back and the occasional longer trip. We live up a steep hill a few miles from town and the area is very hilly. With that in mind, I am happy to keep the exterior and bodywork as standard as possible, but make a few tweaks with the engine- for reliability and low down grunt.

I would like to strip and rebuild the engine renewing everything, but for it to be resilient, reliable and useable for many years of use as I have no intention of ever selling it and I want to only do this once. With this in mind I don't want to make massive changes, instead focusing on reliability and useable power. I intend to fit a casa 185 kit and new crank to give a bit more grunt and bullet proof reliability for two up touring and round the hills. Along with this a new casa clutch for improved reliability and resilience. I will need a new exhaust (clubman style?) and carb anyway as these were missing. With upgraded 12v electrics and quality fittings throughout I hope to produce a bike that will give me years of pleasure.

I happen to regularly pass within a few minutes drive of Casa Lambretta as I fly out of Milan frequently to work in the uk. This is why I am looking at using mostly Casa supplies- along with the legal restrictions of modifying vehicles out here. I intend to take things slowly but do it right, so I don't have to do it again!

As for relevant skills, I've done maintenance work on vehicles most of my life and tinkered as a teenager swapping engines and porting out my 50s and motor cross bikes. I was also worked servicing and repairing boilers in a former life meaning I have some practical skills. This however is a rather different kettle of fish. I've bought most of the tools I need specific to this that I don't already have and have read Sticky's guide cover to cover and back (including the latest version). Where my knowledge and skills run out I will turn to you to ask all these 'silly questions'. This will be a slow burner, but be easy on me and hopefully it won't take another 10 years...

https://www.flickr.com/gp/159377264@N04/9f2Fgm

Sorry for the link. I had read the forum guide and had them all in photobucket ready, but have just found out that I cannot link to this without paying. I've just set up a new Flickr account and transferred the picture but my iPad is struggling to copy and paste the image URL. I will try and get this sorted asap. In the meantime the link has the photos on it. Sorry.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

A barn find like that is wonderful & extremely rare to find it in such an original state.

It’s something many of us dream of!

Most of us rebuild a scooter that will have been modified by previous owners, but yours is different to the norm, which is why I wonder why you plan to modify it to any extent, as it is so complete, as Innocenti intended.

It is a marvellous piece of history, yours to do whatever you wish, missing only a carburettor.

I hope you consider that fully before you commit to the plans you’ve outlined, because the standard 175 engine is strong workhorse that will cope with the hills of Italy quite well, even two up, far easier than the little Lambros haul their loads up those same inclines. The beauty of the fan cooled engine is that it is not reliant on the vehicle's inertia to avoid overheating & must have been the envy of motorcycle owners of that period.

Perhaps it’s just me that thinks that way, but I wish you well whatever you decide & hope that my comments are taken in the spirit that is meant.

[RobTV175]

Thanks for the reply. I must say I didn't realise to begin with what exactly I'd found but realise just how lucky I am. The owner was a Doctor who I don't think was short of a bob or two.

I completely get where you are coming from regarding originality and would encourage feedback and other ideas if it results in a better outcome. I had considered keeping it completely original too and maybe will still go down that route. I sort of thought that if I keep all the original engine parts then it could easily be returned to completely original down the line. Is a rebuilt original spec engine with original parts going to be as reliable given it is 1950s technology?

I suppose a lot depends on what I find when I open up the engine...

[St George]

Put two Asprins in the tank and if it's no better after a week call that Doctor. You are a lucky owner, well done.

[Digger]

The TV175 is a great engine - well able to cope with today's riding conditions, even with the wife on the back.

I've got a TV175 Series 3 with a totally standard engine, points and all - fantastic. (well I think so).

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

I think that an original ‘blueprinted’ engine is going to be reliable & the proof can be found with many of the endurance tests to which Lambretta proved their design whilst still in manufacture.

The notable exception is the TV200 without later barrels & exhausts, but Innocenti were under pressure from our own Concessionaires to meet demand for a 200.

A well set up TV175 is a joy to ride & has a much better balanced engine than subsequent 200’s which are even more oversquare than the Ø62 mm piston employed in your machine.

Opinion varies regarding points ignitions, but my opinion is that most enthusiasts fit electronics because they will prove a cure for the bodged set-ups that are inherited with a pre-used machine.

If you read this Forum though, you will have to question the reliability of the cheaper, basic electronic systems because there is much evidence of problems with them

Some of us persevere with points from the aspect of originality/’what we had in our youth’ but there was a 12 volt contact breaker system available in the 60’s (if not before) that ensure better lights that don’t dim with the engine if a battery is still employed.

Tyres are certainly an item that must not be compromised as well chosen, modern tyres are fantastic compared to what was about, but you may well find that you can salvage much of what comes with the scooter. For instance, I’ve never found any gear cursors better than original (including SIL & the expensive ‘named’ Italian re-made ones) or brake shoes for that matter. Set up correctly, the TV175 S2 drum brake can match many hydraulic disc brakes & needn’t be as fierce as rumoured even with the reverse pull modification.

Be wary of replacing anything simply because remade copies are available!

If you get the chance, visit Rimini Lambretta & chat to Dean. It will inspire you!

[mickey c]

What a great story & find, I imagine virtually everyone on here is excited by this scooter. For what it is worth, my view would be to enjoy the rebuild because there is lots of pleasure in that but changing as little as possible will speed up the process of being able to ride it as soon as possible. I'd guess your winter even in the hills are mild and good for riding.
Renewing cables, oil seals, tyres and suspension would be 'givens' for me as well as anything else that looks broken! I can see benefits of 12v good lights as it sounds like your in idyllic 'sticks' of Italy so I can't imagine many street lights.
Best of luck with it & keep us posted please.

[Toddy]

Wow what a lovely find , as said before all scooterists dream about this , enjoy

[RobTV175]

Well, I must say you offer a compelling argument as to why I should keep it completely standard- it does look exactly like all the publicity photos from nearly 60 years ago. I presumed that it would be an improvement in reliability and power, but from your posts above you offer a convincing argument as to why it makes more sense to keep it original.

I dropped in to Casa Lambretta today on the way home and saw a completely restored one in the flesh for the first time and it is very beautiful. So, I suppose if I am going to keep it original I need to look out for a replacement carb for the scoot.

Mine is a series 2 later production with a 200... serial number but according to Sticky's there is a S2 early, mid AND late without serial number distinctions for the mid/late. The mid requires an MB21 BS5 and the late requires a MB21 BS7. It appears this was brought on by modifications to the air box and scoop. Is there a serial number cut off for the change so I can start to lazily keep an eye out for an appropriate original carb?

[Rich Oswald]

Hi Rob,

The carb' was changed from MA 23 BS5 to MA 21 BS5 from frame No:- 204492 (During 1960)

Then again:-

The carb' was changed from MA 21 BS5 to MA 21 BS7 from frame No:- 227928 (During 1961)

Hope this helps,

Rich'

[ToBoldlyGo]

The carb is one area where I might be tempted to change things. The 21 was used on the later S2's with a very restricted neck to the air box and would probably kill performance. Personally I think I'd probably add a later 20mm carb, which in any case are much better, and look at some way of opening up the neck. Particularly if you plan on running a Casa kit.

[a.lo]

lovely find, the seats on back to front by the way.

[RobTV175]

Thanks Rich

I guess I fall between the 2 and MA21 BS5 would have been the original. i guess there's lots of time available for me to make these choices while I try to remove the front lower frame cone. It's moved nearly 3mm in an hour or two of persuasion from my blind bearing puller.

Thanks

[MickYork]

I'd be inclined to build the engine as standard as possible......if it performs and does what you want then great. If it lacks performance change the exhaust, then a larger carb', if it still doesn't do what you want then consider the upgrade kit.

By doing it this way you will see the benefits as you change the parts and know what can (and can't) be achieved........plus there's the satisfaction of knowing what you did gained the improved performance.

[RobTV175]

I'd be inclined to build the engine as standard as possible......if it performs and does what you want then great. If it lacks performance change the exhaust, then a larger carb', if it still doesn't do what you want then consider the upgrade kit.

By doing it this way you will see the benefits as you change the parts and know what can (and can't) be achieved........plus there's the satisfaction of knowing what you did gained the improved performance.

I like this as an idea- lots. It also means that everything standard will be there and in working order and therefore easy to put back if wanted. It may well be that it is just perfect for my needs in a completely standard setup...

[Rich Oswald]

I borrowed a TV175 S2 a couple of years ago and was amazed at how well it rode and pulled 2 up. Did 55mph easily 2 up and pulled up hills no problem. Totally standard and on points I might add. Possibly the nicest Lambretta to ride!

Rich'

[RobTV175]

So this is a test post to see if I have got my act together and can post a picture via my new flickr account. If I can't get this right, what hope do i have with a wiring loom....

[RobTV175]

Thanks for your patience. On the fourth attempt it worked out.

So I've been slowly working through getting a space to work on my TV and have finally created a space with a workbench, some shelves and enough space to unpack all the boxes from 10+ years ago. Thankfully they were all well labelled and packaged and I can finally stop reading Sticky's and start work.

As I said, it would be a slow burner and I'm managing the odd stolen hour here and there between school runs and work and all the other things that get in the way of what I really want to be doing. Onwards....

The plug was missing and open to the elements and the piston was truly siezed in the barrel. I soaked it in diesel, heated it, froze the piston, left it to soak again. Weeks at a time. I repeated that cycle and read all the forum posts I could find on it and eventually cut a slice up the piston with a dremel on both sides and it was well and truly rusted to the barrel. Solid. During this I damaged the flange on the barrel and was gutted. I was pointed very kindly in the direction of Chiselspeed who can re-sleeve and re-port it with a custom built line with a new 62mm NOS piston. It is not cheap, but allows me to keep the original TV175 barrel which i cannot find anywhere else (unless anyone has a NOS barrel they fancy giving a good home to ). I need to move on from that though.

That however was where the bad news stopped (so far). I had filled the chaincase with gearbox oil 10 years ago and it all came apart exactly as Sticky suggested with the pictures and looks to be in good nick.

The clutch came out nicely, though the plates were all rusted together. I guess the springs and clutch plates should be replaced. Are surflex fine as they seem close to original? What about make for the springs, if i want it to last? I can get Casa stuff form Rimini out here quite easily, but the difference in price between a set of engine bearings from Scootopia and RLC is huge (£55 vs £150 odd). The buying choices are huge and I don't want to cut corners but reading through many threads, it seems price isn't always an indicator of the better product.



The shim gap on the gearbox was around .45mm . I believe this should be much tighter (up to a max of .30mm). Do i just replace the shim when I rebuild the engine or could it be a sign of something else going on behind. All the teeth seemed in really good nick on all gears with the only slight marks being where the kickstart engaged.



I have been in touch with Jem Booth for replacement keys and he can sort me out with keys for all 3 locks. He's also been incredibly helpful in answering questions and offering support. I have been persuaded by this thread and by him to keep the rebuild as original as possible given its completeness. With that in mind, the carb was completely missing and he has offered either a BS5 (to remain completely original) or a BS7. They are both missing the top alloy castings held on with two screws that supports the throttle cable gubbins. I am tempted by the BS5 with an upgraded BS7 kit to alleviate problems with the BS5. Does anyone have a replacement top casting for the BS5? I also need to chase up for the NOS upgrade kit which I think Rimini had according to Stickys.

As for other things, how do you treat replacement fixings such as the chaincase cover bolts? The originals are all still solid and present. Should I replace them for stainless fixings and new bolts/washers or reuse. Instict tells me to 'upgrade' to new fixings but that might be misplaced. The dowels which were i was careful to look out for were also only at the rear of the case- the front one was missing when I opened it up, so I need to replace that. Likewise I need to clean the gasket off the face but don't want to do any damage and most of the videos I've seen on youTube for gasket cleaning seems fairly rough and end up with wet and dry paper to create a smooth mating surface. What's the best way of clearing off a 40+ year gasket that is baked on.

We also don't seem to have vapour blasting out here in the sticks in Italy and with all the scrubbing and toothbrushes so far I end up with a dullish finish to the case. Can I use light aluminium polishing with pads and compounds to lift some of the stubborn dark staining to the case? I can't risk it accidentally coming back from the strippers having been grit blasted, so want a solution that I can work at gently at home.

I told you it would be a slow burner. I can't imagine how difficult this would have been years ago with Sticky's or the internet with forums like this. Thanks again guys for this huge resource.

[xenia1]

Acid dipping for the engine case Rob. Using metal polish is ok but you'll still have that muted grey finish to the ali. Acid dipping removes the smut from the pores of the casting and will leave a bright factory finish. A coat of clearcoat will preserve the finish. Rimini offer this service. Dont grit or vapour blast the casing as it'll ruin it imo.
Re the carb, go for the BS7 with the zinc plated top, the BS5 is fine if you can find a n.o.s one ( a near impossibility) but they had the reputation of leaking like a tea bag..

[davla]

Seeing as it's so original I'd just clean the engine casings with Gunk, you'll be surprised how well they come up. This is mine from a few years ago, it's covered in crap again now