So, Franspeed Race or Supertourer for GT186 kit?

[Donnie]

This will have 17/46 on Li150 gearbox, standard crankshaft and undecided on wether to keep my Mtech advance/retard or go static on indian electronic ignition.

2 questions

1. Are Franspeed exhausts made by or the same as JLs? I keep seeing them on online shops marked as JL/Franspeed?? If there is a difference what is it as I've had JL's before and wasn't impressed, had 2 snap on me some years ago.

2. Race or Supertourer? what's the difference in these in particular in real terms ie on the road?

Any help appreciated.

[Adam_Winstone]

I would be pretty shocked if you manage to pull 4th gear with either one of those pipes and that final ratio!

As soon as you start to look at either of these fairly revvy pipes then you need to drop 4th within the rev range that the motor can reach and operate in.


1. Yes, Jim Lomas makes both the JL and Franspeed pipes. Jim also made/makes JL pipes for Beedspeed, Taffspeed, etc. There is a whole range of JL made pipes and the performance of each model is quite different.

2. Both good pipes if you are prepared to let your motor rev higher and harder than you need to with many other pipes, especially those intended for road or touring use. Both would benefit from an advance/retard ignition as they have little power at lower revs.

Adam

[Donnie]

Thanks for the reply Adam, 17/46 and the Franspeed super clubman (whatever that is as I cannot find evidence of these anywhere online and can only assume it relates to the MB Clubby) is what is recommended by Richard Taylor himself for a fast touring setup but I want something with a bit more oomph so was looking at the sprint spec which uses the Franspeed super tourer.

I know this setup will give a 4.6 final drive ratio but have seen there are others out there using it e.g. burnside on here does (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4734&p=38173&hilit=+gt186#p38252) and i know that it's likely going to need to be up and down the gears a bit as he also says but I have no problem trying it and seeing if it suits my riding, I can always drop to a 16t front which will give me 4.89 or up the rear sprocket to a 47 to give me 4.8.

Or is there another expansion chamber out there that I haven't considered I wonder?

[Adam_Winstone]

If you do go for either of those pipes then keep the 16 tooth sprocket close at hand, with the 15 not far away either. I note that Burnside is using an MB clubman in that link, which will have a very different gearing requirement.

I note that Richard Taylor gives his email address on his home page and asks people to drop him a line if they have any questions, so that would probably be my first move.

If you want to drop the revs and pull a 4th gear ratio then you might want to consider the Franspeed Road pipe, which as the name suggests is a good option for those that want a motor to pull well on the road.

Adam

[dickie]

Thanks for the reply Adam, 17/46 and the Franspeed super clubman (whatever that is as I cannot find evidence of these anywhere online and can only assume it relates to the MB Clubby) is what is recommended by Richard Taylor himself for a fast touring setup

The franspeed super clubman (also known as avanti clubman) is a semi mythical beast of Ron moss creation and is currently unavailable. I've pestered him a couple of times for one but he doesn't have any so obviously can't sell me one!

If he gets them I'll be near the front of the queue.

[Adam_Winstone]

Yep, I'm in that queue too

[Donnie]

If you do go for either of those pipes then keep the 16 tooth sprocket close at hand, with the 15 not far away either. I note that Burnside is using an MB clubman in that link, which will have a very different gearing requirement.

he has the mb on the 200, im assuming that a) it's got a bit more grunt anyway with the extra cc's, but also he may well have a different riding style / use for the 200? I am making an assumption though to be fair.

I note that Richard Taylor gives his email address on his home page and asks people to drop him a line if they have any questions, so that would probably be my first move.

I might well do that, im not too near buying a pipe yet to be fair so have a bit of time, which is why i thought i'd do a bit of research here on peoples opinions and thoughts, which are much appreciated.

If you want to drop the revs and pull a 4th gear ratio then you might want to consider the Franspeed Road pipe, which as the name suggests is a good option for those that want a motor to pull well on the road

Adam

added to the consideration pile

[Donnie]

Thanks for the reply Adam, 17/46 and the Franspeed super clubman (whatever that is as I cannot find evidence of these anywhere online and can only assume it relates to the MB Clubby) is what is recommended by Richard Taylor himself for a fast touring setup

The franspeed super clubman (also known as avanti clubman) is a semi mythical beast of Ron moss creation and is currently unavailable. I've pestered him a couple of times for one but he doesn't have any so obviously can't sell me one!

If he gets them I'll be near the front of the queue.

ahhhhhhhh I see

[Storkfoot]

If you do go for either of those pipes then keep the 16 tooth sprocket close at hand, with the 15 not far away either. I note that Burnside is using an MB clubman in that link, which will have a very different gearing requirement.

I agree about keeping a 16 close at hand.

Standard GT186, Italian S3 Li150 box, PHBH30, MB Clubman. I have run it in a Series 2 and on a cutdown and in neither case would it pull 17/46 successfully. Sixteen is much better.

[Stevepshipley]

Donnie, not that i know my arse from my elbow, but i've just tried an expansion pipe for the first time. Its on my S2 running a small block 198 mugello with 30mm dellorto and 16/46 with li 150 gearbox. I chose the TSR evo cos it was £100 less expensive than most and had some good feedback. I'm really pleased with it, pulls very strongly. Had it dynod by Dan and it reached peak power (18.3 bhp) at 6000 revs then ran on to about 8000. Not done many miles on it yet but really enjoyed the 35 miles ride home from Ripon, made 69.5 mph (gps) before i backed off.

[Donnie]

Cheers Steve, yeah, i toyed with the tsr but there's a fair share of negative stories out there over the last couple of years including poor fitment and snapping

[Donnie]

right so, a quick (fair play) from Richard has swayed be toward the 16 tooth, i have both anyway so if I get really twitchy i can try the 17 some time later

Also seems to not be totally against the TSR pipe vs franspeed as Im a lone rider ie no pillion etc. So, maybe the way to go after all.

[burnside]

If you do go for either of those pipes then keep the 16 tooth sprocket close at hand, with the 15 not far away either. I note that Burnside is using an MB clubman in that link, which will have a very different gearing requirement.

he has the mb on the 200, im assuming that a) it's got a bit more grunt anyway with the extra cc's, but also he may well have a different riding style / use for the 200? I am making an assumption though to be fair.

I note that Richard Taylor gives his email address on his home page and asks people to drop him a line if they have any questions, so that would probably be my first move.

I might well do that, im not too near buying a pipe yet to be fair so have a bit of time, which is why i thought i'd do a bit of research here on peoples opinions and thoughts, which are much appreciated.

If you want to drop the revs and pull a 4th gear ratio then you might want to consider the Franspeed Road pipe, which as the name suggests is a good option for those that want a motor to pull well on the road

Adam

added to the consideration pile

Yes I've got the BGM clubman on the 200 although with the 60/110 crank in the 186 that takes it up to 193cc so not that much difference, as for riding style I tend to ride them like I stole them!

I'm using the same gearing (Li150 17/46) with both the 200/BGM and 186/Fran Race so it is a decent comparison, I find the BGM has a nice spread of power, accelerates smoothly through all the gears and handles the gearing with ease. The Fran race is a completely different beast, huge power band around 6k revs which brings a massive grin to my face but is still rideable around town at lower revs. Only thing I do find is that if running along between 50-60mph in 4th gear with that gearing I have to change down to 3rd to bring in back into the power band and then up to 4th, especially if on an incline, so maybe a 16 front sprocket would suit it better?

Only just put 500 miles on the 186 so far and most of that has been town riding on my daily commute to work, but can now start opening it up more and taking for a few longer rides to test it out.

I was originally going to go with the Supertourer pipe with the 186 but Richard advised me to go with the Race instead. Worth emailing/speaking to him, he's always been more than happy to give advice.

[Donnie]

Yep, done that

Im going to go for the 16t with 81 link iwis and pull down tensioner which i already have.

Next thing will be to bite the bullet on the exhaust, ie either the tsr evo or the franspeed

[bamrattle]

Gt 186 out the box, 28mm delly 16x47 tsr evo bang on combo. Flew up to brid this yr great mpg

[Donnie]

16 / 47?

hmmmm not considered that one, just had a look on scooterhelps gearing calculator though and looks slower than even the 16/46?

So, what Ive now decided on


What I was going to use


What you use

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

I take my hat of to you if you can be quite so predictive of the results of a set-up you've yet to put together.

That's not said with any sarcasm, but I am amazed that you can dial in so many known factors such as what must amount to the optimum operating engine speed.

I'm still from the camp that would opt for what I believed to be best, put it all together to the best of my limited ability (using the die grinders et cetera @ my disposal) deliberately toward under geared (if possible) try it (whilst prioritising on the carburettor & ignition settings) then start looking @ charts such as the one above after taking into account all of the other data I could.

No doubt you'll be using a good tachometer & have an EGT with the probe preferably in the exhaust.

I'm watching this thread with interest & hope you will post up images as the work progresses.

Good Luck to you with your fresh approach!

[Donnie]

Fresh approach? How's that? Im not trying to be factually predictive at all as you imply.

Im using the lambretta gearing guides as just that, guides. Im deciding on a starting point of 16/46 based on

a) advice from on here of those running similar setups
b) advice from the designer of the actual kit
c) the equipment I have to hand already, ie li150 gearbox, 30mm PHBH, the fact the top end and casings are matched etc.

The guides above compare 3 different sprocket setups with the same box, thats what I wanted to compare.

And no, I don't have a tacho or an egt as I don't see why i need one to be honest.

Plenty of engines built and running well without such gizmos.

[Adam_Winstone]

One thing to remember, which these graphs do help to visualise, is that you've probably highlighted the 6000 rpm range as this is what you would like to cruise at. Then marry this 3/4 throttle cruising speed with the motor's ability to stay in the power for the porting and the pipe's power range. As a Fran Race will easily hit 9K+ through the gears (10K+ if the porting allows) you need to consider whether or not you'll be able to stay in the power/revs at part throttle cruising speeds or whether you'll be changing down regularly to get back up to where the pipe makes power.

Assuming that you don't want a motor that can never reach the power/revs/speeds in 4th, then you should also be looking to see what those gearing choices are doing at 7K and 8K. You then need to consider whether you want:

1. a bike that doesn't pull 4th correctly,
2. a bike that only does 6K in 4th because it cannot reach the revs to operate as designed to operate, where more throttle equals more noise and fuel consumption but no additional speed (typical of a bike that is over-geared)
3. a bike that can pull 4th correctly but that YOU choose to back off and cruise at partial potential on (typical of a bike that is correctly geared and does have this reserve for overtaking or catching up with others, without having to drop down to 3rd),
4. look at the 8-9K speed on the 4.6 gearing and tell me whether you are actually looking for a bike that can do between 88 and 100mph when flat out in 4th, or whether you think that the GT186 could actually do this if pulling the Race pipe's over-rev correctly/fully? If not, this is when the mismatch between gearing and pipe's operating range becomes more obvious.
5. Then look at the 4.9(ish) gear options and consider what you would like your bike to top out at in 4th see what the bike would be running at if it can pull 4th correctly (for the pipe's upper rev potential), see if this is more the flat out potential that you can imagine running at as/when you want to, then consider that you can choose to back off to 6K in top any time you want to cruise, without any concern about having to drop to 3rd, and can use up to WOT usefully if you so choose to.

Getting the gearing right is so important and more and more people seem to opt for high BHP figures because it sounds good, then state that they want the bike for cruising. Sadly, these two factors rarely go hand in hand. If you want to opt for kits or pipes that want to produce power at revs... then let them rev (short gearing). If you don't want a motor to rev, don't buy a tuned kit or pipe that is designed to work correctly at high revs. The GT kit does have some good grunt but it is by no means a 'standard' porting kit! Indeed, I believe that exhaust duration may have been extended somewhat recently, encouraging it to make higher power at higher RPM. The reed and porting does still make this a good touring kit with plenty of low rpm power but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be considered as 'tuned'. Likewise, the Fran Race is exactly that... a race pipe (similar to the JL4, which started life as the Taff Group IV pipe). The Taff pipe was on the Group IV winning bike of its day and needed plenty of power throughout the range to achieve that accolade but it is still a race pipe nonetheless. It would be a mistake to think that you can take a race pipe and tuned kit and then gear it for laid-back touring at next to no RPM. If you do opt for the Fran Race, which I use on one of my touring kit bikes, then look towards the 4.8-5.0 range IMO, rather than the 4.6 or higher (lower number). FYI - My touring kit is a 225cc option and runs 4.8 final ratio.

Adam

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Fresh as in 'different to the norm' was what I intended to convey.

However, your reaction seems defensive, as if I've struck a nerve!

Obviously, my ability to comprehend what you are doing is beyond me!

Naively, I presumed that dialling in the intended characteristics of an engine (specifically 6000, if I've got @ least that bit right) would then require further assessment with 'gizmos' to know an engine speed had been acquired. I suppose I should have dug deeper into my memory & thought about how else that could be calculated....

No! Please don't tell me the answer!

I have it in the back of my mind there is a method involving calculus & another 'gizmo' that I think has significant letters....I'm getting a 'G' an 'S' & a 'P' not necessarily in that order.

Friendly Forum. My ar__!