Layshaft. Casa or Bgm

[johnnyjarvis]

Renewing bottom end and looking for opinions on casa and bgm layshafts. Was leaning toward casa because there’s a casa
Gearbox going in there .

[Storkfoot]

I can’t answer your question but, having compared a Casa one that I bought with one of the MEC/EUR Italian ones, I’d be amazed if they weren’t made in the same factory.

Matching non original sliding dogs with gearboxes and non original layshafts is difficult, in my experience.

[gizmo]

I can’t answer your question but, having compared a Casa one that I bought with one of the MEC/EUR Italian ones, I’d be amazed if they weren’t made in the same factory.

Matching non original sliding dogs with gearboxes and non original layshafts is difficult, in my experience.

Do you reckon it's best to try and use all the parts from same manufacturer or don't any particularly match up anyway

[Storkfoot]

I can’t answer your question but, having compared a Casa one that I bought with one of the MEC/EUR Italian ones, I’d be amazed if they weren’t made in the same factory.

Matching non original sliding dogs with gearboxes and non original layshafts is difficult, in my experience.

Do you reckon it's best to try and use all the parts from same manufacturer or don't any particularly match up anyway

Not necessarily. MEC/EUR sliding dogs matched with MEC/EUR layshafts have involved me getting both sliding dogs and layshafts machined at a local engineers.

I haven’t tried a bgm or MB layshaft.

[ULC Soulagent]

Having used all types ( bgm/ mb / mec / casa ) I haven’t found anything untowards in the using of different components bar the 5 speed boxes where it’s highly recommended that you use the same layshaft for said same gearbox, ie mb 5 speed with mb shaft, Af 5 speed with their shaft’s, casa performance 5 speed with their layshafts and so on.

[GP Kevo]

I use an MB layshaft in a SIL GP200 engine case for my TS1. It's using an Italian Li 150 gearbox, MB gear selector and recently a new SIL endplate. I've run an Innocenti 4 plate clutch, an AF 5 plate clutch and now an MB 6 plate with no fitment problems. The only issue I had with the MB layshaft was having to dremel out the hole for the balls and selector spring, there was a burr inside probably left from machining it during production. I've got money down on an MB 5 speed, just waiting for availability and my checking account to match up.

If I buy a Casa case, I'll probably use Casa components. Touring with and trying to keep up with my mate on his very reliable SSR 265 has convinced me that their components are decent quality. I guess I'm trying to say if you can, to use matching parts if possible.

[Speedy Hufton]

Probably not helping here but have yer not considered the AF Rayspeed hi spec layshaft? They do a standard length ie 4 speed and one slightly longer for 5 speeds. Excellent quality and half the price. Hope that's not hindered. I got one in my s type with close 5 speed box and it's great. I also have an MB racetour in another gp. I bought that off a friend new as it didn't fit with his cyclone v3? box. Cheers, Speedy.

[Storkfoot]

I’m back to this subject again.

I have today tried to marry up two gearboxes (Italian Li150 and Italian TV175) to one of the unused layshafts I have. It’s an Italian layshaft. In both cases, the layshaft stands proud of first gear which will cause me shimming issues when I get that far.



I know I can get the layshaft machined to be below first gear but I am tempted to just try the AF 4 speed Layshaft. Has anyone had any issues with the AF Layshaft?

[dickie]

I've got one in my bitsa. It's had 2 gearboxes in it. AF 4 speed close ratio (which i destroyed due to my own stupidity) and a casa 4 speed close ratio.

Both shimmed up nicely.

If it doesn't work out, AF sell shims to pull the layshaft away from the casing for very little money. I think it's worth buying a few when you order, just in case.

[Storkfoot]

I've got one in my bitsa. It's had 2 gearboxes in it. AF 4 speed close ratio (which i destroyed due to my own stupidity) and a casa 4 speed close ratio.

Both shimmed up nicely.

If it doesn't work out, AF sell shims to pull the layshaft away from the casing for very little money. I think it's worth buying a few when you order, just in case.

The shims won’t sort this as far as I can see. If you have the layshaft in your hand and then stack the gears on the layshaft, the layshaft stands proud. If you shim the layshaft, all you do is reduce the size of gearbox shim needed. It doesn’t resolve the issue of first gear needing to stand proud of both the sliding dog and layshaft.

[dickie]

Yes of course you're right. I wasn't thinking straight.

But in my experience of one AF layshaft with 2 boxes, it works fine.

Coincidentally, I did measure the distance from the shoulder where 4th gear sits to surface where the large shim sits 2 days ago. On an original S2, it was just under 42mm (couldn't be accurate as we only had a tape measure handy) and on my AF, it was 41.6 to 41.8mm. Measured AF at a few points, but in the bike without gearbox, so a bit awkward. Those figures are from memory, so take them with a pinch of salt, but the conclusion was that my AF one is good; i had a different problem but suspected the layshaft.

[Storkfoot]

Yes of course you're right. I wasn't thinking straight.

But in my experience of one AF layshaft with 2 boxes, it works fine.

Coincidentally, I did measure the distance from the shoulder where 4th gear sits to surface where the large shim sits 2 days ago. On an original S2, it was just under 42mm (couldn't be accurate as we only had a tape measure handy) and on my AF, it was 41.6 to 41.8mm. Measured AF at a few points, but in the bike without gearbox, so a bit awkward. Those figures are from memory, so take them with a pinch of salt, but the conclusion was that my AF one is good; i had a different problem but suspected the layshaft.

Thanks, Dickie. For the cost of the AF layshaft, I may well try it. I did try one once before. The case hardening came off in the area where the second gear cog sat. I’m pretty certain that was an issue with the gearbox though and not the layshaft itself.

Actually, come to think of it, I still have that AF layshaft somewhere. If I can lay my hands on it, I’ll mock that layshaft up with the sliding dog and gearbox and see whether it will resolve the issue.

[Storkfoot]

Both pictures are of a TV175 set of gears. I have also tried the other two gearboxes I have, both Italian, and both produce the same results. One was an Li150 which, apparently, are prone to this issue. The other is a GP125/200.

The top picture is a new Italian made layshaft and MB Race Tour sliding dog. Good news is that the sliding dog does not protrude above first gear. The bad news is that the layshaft does sit over first gear.

The second picture is the new AF layshaft with just the gears resting on the layshaft. Again, the layshaft should sit below first gear but it doesn’t.

I already knew the Italian one needed machining. I’m just a bit disappointed that the AF does as well.

Or, is it me that is so unlucky as to have three gearboxes that are so worn out

[hullygully]

Having used all types ( bgm/ mb / mec / casa ) I haven’t found anything untowards in the using of different components bar the 5 speed boxes where it’s highly recommended that you use the same layshaft for said same gearbox, ie mb 5 speed with mb shaft, Af 5 speed with their shaft’s, casa performance 5 speed with their layshafts and so on.

I was about to say that, I bought a 1st batch Broady 5-speed & was told it fits any layshaft, Casa nope................... had to flog it to a mate with a Cyclone that wouldn't fit on an Indian one, so I had to buy a Broady one

[dickie]

Storkfoot, I'm struggling to see how we'd get side wear on the loose gears; they're hardened, and subject to very little side load thaf I can see.

The stupidity i mentioned above was me running a gearbox with NO oil for an unknown amount of time. It did a lot of damage, but no sidewear that was apparent to me.

[Storkfoot]

Storkfoot, I'm struggling to see how we'd get side wear on the loose gears; they're hardened, and subject to very little side load thaf I can see.

The stupidity i mentioned above was me running a gearbox with NO oil for an unknown amount of time. It did a lot of damage, but no sidewear that was apparent to me.

I agree entirely. Which leads me back to the layshafts being incorrect. I have never had this issue with an old Innocenti layshaft. I have an old Innocenti one here and the gears stand proud of the end of the layshaft be around 1mm.

I hoped that the AF Indian one would be different as it is clearly not made in the same Italian factory as the Casa, MEC/EUR and, possibly, the bgm too.

I have just dropped both layshafts off at a local engineers, as I have done in the past.