Runnin to Hot

[avanti]

Hi everyone looking for shared experience.
I am having difficulties in running in my new build as every trip using the Koso temp gauge , temp sender is tapped in the a fin on the cylinder head, reads 170 c plus.
the spec is
iron 200 barrel road tune by pro porting
stroked with 115mm rod
squish 1.4
Vape static set a 18 BTDC
AF head
phb 30mm set up rich whilst running in
Ron Moss ST
is it perceived wisdom that exceeding 180C will result in seizure
on this set up is 18 degree TDC to advanced

tks
KTF
Avanti

[Covboy]

Have you done a full leak down test ?

[avanti]

hi Yes done that

[ULC Soulagent]

Best man to ask is Harry

[Fast n Furious]

You could revisit this old post which shows how to make some worthwhile cooling mods.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12613&hilit=cooling

[Norrie Bodge]

Retard ya timing a few degrees

[Adam_Winstone]

^.... yup

[avanti]

thanks guys , think retarding is the way to go KTF

[Norrie Bodge]

thanks guys , think retarding is the way to go KTF

Let’s know how it goes

[Paul_from_Thornbury]

I cannot comment for the exact location of your sensor, but I have never understood this fear of anything over 180 deg C. I currently run an MB temp sensor with the sensor under the plug and previously a Trailtech. I run my TS-1 to a temp limit of 230 deg C and have never seized.Used the same limit on an RT195 that used to only get there on fast runs on really hot days. But my TS-1 gets there a lot easier on fast runs. I use the temp limit chart from Rotax for air cooled engines and with an EGT also fitted that works well to the limits on the same chart. I’ve seen the DT advice that says 390/400 deg F (205 deg C) will result in a size but never seen on what basis or where the sensor was placed to measure this.

[Adam_Winstone]

I cannot comment for the exact location of your sensor, but I have never understood this fear of anything over 180 deg C. I currently run an MB temp sensor with the sensor under the plug and previously a Trailtech. I run my TS-1 to a temp limit of 230 deg C and have never seized.Used the same limit on an RT195 that used to only get there on fast runs on really hot days. But my TS-1 gets there a lot easier on fast runs. I use the temp limit chart from Rotax for air cooled engines and with an EGT also fitted that works well to the limits on the same chart. I’ve seen the DT advice that says 390/400 deg F (205 deg C) will result in a size but never seen on what basis or where the sensor was placed to measure this.

Agreed, people shouldn't get too worried about the specific temp figure being given, rather, determine what is the 'correct' running temp for your bike, then keep an eye on this to note any spikes at certain throttle positions, which you can adjust away, keep an eye out for sudden spikes after a refill (amazing variation from one tank to the next), and/or a sudden change for no reason (air leak, etc).

Having a 'good running temp' datum is all important, regardless of what that figure may be. As already said, so many factors will come into play, EGT, CHT, position of sensor, etc that focussing too much on a specific figure can be unhelpful.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

keep an eye out for sudden spikes after a refill (amazing variation from one tank to the next)

I think the best way of obtaining consistent, best quality fuel is to avoid Supermarket fuels in the sense of cost saving. Personally, I favour Shell’s premium fuels & tend to seek out the ‘stand alone’ Shell stations.

Despite the high turnover in stations associated with Tesco, Morrisons etc, the fuel related issues experienced with cars has been due to the quality causing pump failure. Supermarkets have their tanks refilled by any of several suppliers whereas BP use dedicated BP tankers, Shell use Shell etc.

[gp200ts1]

keep an eye out for sudden spikes after a refill (amazing variation from one tank to the next)

I think the best way of obtaining consistent, best quality fuel is to avoid Supermarket fuels in the sense of cost saving. Personally, I favour Shell’s premium fuels & tend to seek out the ‘stand alone’ Shell stations.

Despite the high turnover in stations associated with Tesco, Morrisons etc, the fuel related issues experienced with cars has been due to the quality causing pump failure. Supermarkets have their tanks refilled by any of several suppliers whereas BP use dedicated BP tankers, Shell use Shell etc.

Here we go again with supermarket fuel. All e10 unleaded is the same be it shell, esso, texaco, bp, Asda, Tesco etc etc. the only one of those fuels that are genuinely branded is esso. None of the other big names have a refinery in the uk. Gulf doesn’t even exist as an oil company any longer. The local ex texaco refinery to me supplies every petrol station in a 60 mile radius and some further afield. All e10 is made to a British standard so you pay extra for the name not the quality. After advice from the terrible taffs all of my scoots are set to run on basic unleaded as you cannot guarantee getting super unleaded at every petrol station you stop at.
Don’t believe the hype that branded fuel is better quality it’s just more expensive. Take that from someone that made motor fuels for 9 years.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

keep an eye out for sudden spikes after a refill (amazing variation from one tank to the next)

I think the best way of obtaining consistent, best quality fuel is to avoid Supermarket fuels in the sense of cost saving. Personally, I favour Shell’s premium fuels & tend to seek out the ‘stand alone’ Shell stations.

Despite the high turnover in stations associated with Tesco, Morrisons etc, the fuel related issues experienced with cars has been due to the quality causing pump failure. Supermarkets have their tanks refilled by any of several suppliers whereas BP use dedicated BP tankers, Shell use Shell etc.

Here we go again with supermarket fuel. All e10 unleaded is the same be it shell, esso, texaco, bp, Asda, Tesco etc etc. the only one of those fuels that are genuinely branded is esso. None of the other big names have a refinery in the uk. Gulf doesn’t even exist as an oil company any longer. The local ex texaco refinery to me supplies every petrol station in a 60 mile radius and some further afield. All e10 is made to a British standard so you pay extra for the name not the quality. After advice from the terrible taffs all of my scoots are set to run on basic unleaded as you cannot guarantee getting super unleaded at every petrol station you stop at.
Don’t believe the hype that branded fuel is better quality it’s just more expensive. Take that from someone that made motor fuels for 9 years.

I didn’t even mention E10 & would only use it in a lawnmower. Potentially, an E5 fuel should be considered to include the premium petrols that would always be my choice.

Despite your knowledge & experience, there are others prepared to run tests & conclude that there are measurable differences between brands, as this article appears to demonstrate:

https://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/topic/15 ... ls-tested/

Interestingly - if you can believe the tests ( ) Tesco Momentum performs the best as far as commercially available premium petrol in the dyne runs. Years ago, Charlie Edmonds used to say it was the better fuel……

[Fast n Furious]

The results of that WSCC test were within a few HP of each other (except for the Alchyfuel), which,IMO, is consistant with minor changes in air density that you would expect to see throughout a days worth of testing various fuels in such a manner.
I think this test has little or no merit TBH.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

The results of that WSCC test were within a few HP of each other (except for the Alchyfuel), which,IMO, is consistant with minor changes in air density that you would expect to see throughout a days worth of testing various fuels in such a manner.
I think this test has little or no merit TBH.

The article is the first thing I found on the web & the video within gives some sort of validation of what the dyno operator feels.

Much of our own opinions are caused by experience & hearsay, but when it comes to the microscopic analysis of petrol - “Petrol is made up of multiple chemicals containing hydrogen and carbon, commonly known as hydrocarbons. The average petrol blend contains around 150 different hydrocarbons, including substances such as butane, isopentane and pentane” - then it’s unlikely any of us will know anybody prepared to reveal what are considered as very confidential formulae.

If things have changed since fuel companies ran dedicated fleets of tankers to the extent that there are countrywide sources of supply that means that all petrol types & diesel types are ostensibly identical, then I was unaware.

Somehow, I doubt that all types of fuels are equal, even if I cannot qualify that…..

[martyn dwane]

The same petrol tankers deliver to my local Tesco store and Shell Garage, maybe Shell have a little something added to their petrol, i use both, never noticed any difference in performance or mileage per tank full.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

The same petrol tankers deliver to my local Tesco store and Shell Garage, maybe Shell have a little something added to their petrol, i use both, never noticed any difference in performance or mileage per tank full.

Unless you know what’s actually being delivered by tanker, it’s a tough one to call.

I would imagine that the non-premium, lower grades of petrol & diesel account for most of the sales & whilst Shell etc do make claims for the superiority of their fuels, if you notice, it is only for the top end variety.

The subject of fuel differences & the impact upon vehicles has been aired many times in several ways via Honest John. He can only account for his own ‘Real World’ experiences but is an advocate of buying fuel from stand alone stations, one reason alone being due to the element of risk associated with Supermarket fuel.

I should add that it’s not necessarily the quality of the fuel delivered but how it is kept that can cause problems. What can possibly go wrong, I don’t know, but it can. Same with beer. If you’ve never had a dodgy pint, then you are in the majority

[martyn dwane]

plenty of dodgy pints but it`s usually the last one that makes me ill

[bookertmgs1]

All the conversations about individual brands of fuel puzzle me. I've seen posts (not necessarily on here) saying they only use Shell Max or something like that.

What happens when they are low on fuel ? do they start pushing rather than fill up at an Asda. Do they plan routes around the location of Shell garages. Lord only know what they'd do on a Euro trip.

There is definately something in the storage / freshness of the fuel - bunch of us all filled up at a garage and all of us ran like shit for 60 miles until we filled up again. Too much of a coincidence for it not to be specifically related to that batch