engine series ID advice needed

[johnnyXS]

This is the spare case (which is supposed to be a 150Li special case ) It is of unknown age or origin has 8mm exhaust studs and large late pattern silent blocks fitted .

[Adam_Winstone]

The second photo on the other page (page 1) is not a Special casing, as identified by the small mounts, no oil thrower washer seat, and what appears to be the smaller main exhaust studs... please note that, even if 8mm, the cast area around these studs is not as big as on the later casings. I myself have just tapped an early 6mm casing out to 8mm but did note that the area around the lower stud us nit as substantial as on the later casings, which were always intended to be 8mm.

FYI - My Nov 68 example of the odd late batch is a 2690** frame with an 809*** casing! NB: This was the original casing for this bike and had all the correct engine features when stripped, including correct barrel and late 'thick 3rd gear' gearbox (centre of gearbox Xmas tree not centre drilled for earlier spec pressure plate). As you can see, actually no 7***** engine or frame number.

Adam

[johnnyXS]

ok so lets sum up without talking about late model specials which is just confusing the issue .

The first 2x images are of a series 1 crankcase with a 7##### number .

The third image is a genuine early 1963/64 150Li special engine fitted to my 64 Pacemaker Special. It has a 7##### number and It has the painted blocks and 8mm exhaust studs.

The forth and fifth images (same case) is a seperate crankcase with a 7##### number 8mm studs, non painted blocks . This case was sold as a 150Li special crankcase. This is the case that I need identifying now as I am satisfied about the other 2 cases.

[HxPaul]

In the second photo,if you look at the case around the crank bearing you will see that the case is not recessed for a dished washer,this is a series 1 case

[johnnyXS]

yes sorry I should have said series 1 . its getting complicated keeping track .Thanks for being patient !
So the first case ( image 1&2 ) is a series 1 (although the seller sold it as a series ll )

Are you happy that Images 4&5 are a series 3 post 1964 special case ?.

It would be useful for future reference to record all the 150Li special cases that have 7##### numbers . A lot of sources still show 7##### numbered as series 1 engines which is misleading.
I suspect that back in 1963 /64 the early Pacemaker Specials were build in relatively small numbers and Innocenti took small blocks of 7##### engine numbers for each production batch until they started to produce the silver and gold Specials in 1965 which could explain the non -sequential Li150 Special engine case numbering in the 7##### range

[HxPaul]

Are you happy that Images 4&5 are a series 3 post 1964 special case ?



The images 4&5 are of a series 3 case,unfortunatly it could be an Li 150 or a Li 150 special because they both used 7***** as there engine numbers.The images you've shown show a case with large silent blocks,but someone could easily have changed the silent blocks on a standard Li 150 from small to large engine mounts.From what I can tell looking at the photos you have one series 1 engine case and two series 3 cases,which could be standard Li 150 or Li 150 Special.

[johnnyXS]

yes I appreciate that the 4th & 5th images are a series 3 case and the mounts do look pretty clean it has to be said so they could have been changed but I guess any pre 65 special case that has its painted mounts changed would look like an ordinary series 3 case externally.
This is the case that the seller claimed is a Special 150 case.Like you I'm now not so sure ,I don't think there is anything about the case that distinquishes from a standard series 3 case.

The engine fitted to the Li150 special scoot (3rd image)is without question an early pre 65 special 150 case... that was never really in question in my mind and still isn't.

[Adam_Winstone]

I've never had any original bike or casing that has had painted engine mounts so don't think this factors in to the question of originality. However, I have painted (silver or black) a number of engine mounts myself, simply to get rid of the nasty 'rusty look' that is all too common on older motors.

Adam

[johnnyXS]

I've never had any original bike or casing that has had painted engine mounts so don't think this factors in to the question of originality.

Adam

yes all the early 1963 and 1964 Pacemaker 150 Li specials apparently had painted silent block mounts to match the frame and tanks in nuevo white. Only the later silver and gold had the regualr plain steel mounts which look slightly larger
Ask any early special owner

[Adam_Winstone]

That contradicts the 'white rubber' of early TV175 III engines that has been put into print previously! I've never heard that from anyone that had an early Special, nor have I seen it on any of the original LI150S bikes that I've seen.

I stand to be corrected but this thread has already raised the issue of much that is quoted or published being utter rubbish but could this not be another example of such a mistake?

Adam

[johnnyXS]

this is a continual problem
People tend to offer advice online that is not backed up by any research or actual observation and personal experience .
pretty soon enough people have quoted this unsubstantiated source and it is all over the net. Nobody bothers to question it anymore and just repeat it.

because I have a 1964 150Li special I have spent a lot of time on the net in the past 2x years reading everything I can find.
I have collected pictures of dozens of other owners early specials and without exception they have all had painted mounts .
Every early special engine that I have seen advertised on ebay has also had painted mounts which is an awful lot of painted mounts !

Seeing as nobody else has joined in this discussion I might try appealing to other Special owners on here and elsewhere to post pictures of their engines and engine numbers so that I can post something in the Anorak section for future reference.
Thanks for all your help
Johnny

[Adam_Winstone]

Johnny,

That would be great as I too see lots and lots being quoted that is not correct, making it very difficult to champion what is correct.

In this case, I've got a late British LI150S and have stripped worked on a number of original Italian imports as a guy local to me used to bring them in by the container load and I would get his non-runners running so that he could up the asking price considerably. Every non-runner that I got running meant a bonus for me LI125S and LI150S models were probably as common as standard LIs in the bikes that he imported so I've been pretty intimate with plenty. None of these examples, nor those that I've seen for sale at any of the UK dealers/importers have had painted mounts, which is why I question whether any Specials ever had their mounts painted?

I'd be happy for you to prove me wrong as it means that I'll have learnt something, and I'm happy to have a slice of humble pie every now and again, so please do what you can to present material to support this suggestion. Unfortunately, restored examples and hearsay cannot be presented as 'proof' but hearsay is admissible as supporting opinion.

Debate like this is good and serves to keep the knowledge database 'clean'. Unfortunately, as we both agree on, historical errors, especially those put into print, are very hard to challenge and correct but we are all better off at the end if we have shown something to be right... or wrong. A perfect example of this is the introduction of plastic components on late Innocenti GPs, which people argued about and got VERY heat about, refusing to accept that this had ever been fitted by the Italians. Thankfully, Nick and Waddo then came up with a paper copy of the original Concessionaires newsletter that identified these later plastic components, even listing them individually and quoting part numbers. Without this issue being highlighted and debated on here, it might still be an issue that people still disagree on.

Please don't think that this is me arguing in a negative manner, rather this is me trying to positively get to the bottom of what is truth and what is rumour/myth.

Regards,

Adam

[johnnyXS]

absolutely agree with you Adam.
I'm never satisfied with anything so I always question everything.Thats the only way we learn the truth .

[Adam_Winstone]

^... great attitude