New 8-stud Lambretta hub from Casa Lambretta

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

I don’t know what’s so difficult to comprehend about what I’ve said as I believe it’s all factual.

I am not trying to p*ss on anybody’s chips here, but have just attempted to make what I believe to be relevant comments, rather than clamour for what may amount to little more than bling.

The point I make, repeatedly, is that however ‘innovative’ new, or ‘trick’ components may be, there is no verification that the replacement components are better than the old, original parts.

I question the materials, hardness, & engineering involved in the ‘newer’ parts because there appears to be no quality standard to which manufacturers must conform.

As far as the age of original Lambretta components, whether Italian or Spanish, there is, of course, a finite life to all of these parts. I wouldn’t have worked in certain of the industries that I have without being aware of ‘lifing’ of key components, particularly within Motor Sport. However, as far as the issue of layshafts are concerned, nobody yet appears able to verify the reasons for failure. There's been plenty of speculation, but no facts from anybody choosing to take exception to what my opinion is!

It’s great that some strive to bring new components to us.

However, the fact that they are ‘new’, ‘trick’, ‘billet’ or whatever, doesn’t make them any more fit for purpose than the parts they would aim to supersede. Jeez! ‘Billet’ FFS often means that the part is not a forging or casting so there’s a compromise straight away as far as so many desirable properties are concerned, not least of which the grain structure.

Am I alone in thinking that it would be great if purveyors of replacement parts were bound to manufacture them to the minimum standard necessary to ensure our best interests, one of which must surely be safety through quality control?

[rossclark]

Don't disagree with that.

Original parts have at least had to have been submitted to some sort of quality control or homologation and meet the original 50 year old specification.

I have no idea what standards after market parts manufacturers have to follow, but if I was in that game my conscience might at least dictate that what I made was 'fit for purpose'. I cannot guarantee that others might feel the same and all the evidence suggests that there are people and companies out there who don't follow that principle.

[Jim Rose]

I'm one of those who have had a layshaft snap. It was and original Italian one on a mildly tuned engine. I got away with it by shear luck. I have a pile of old Italian layshafts lying in my garage. They are all 50 years old give or take and I'm not convinced I would trust them over one of the replacements that are available from some of the specialist suppliers.
The 8 stud wheel does at first glance seem like solving a problem that would not exist with good maintenance as Martin has suggested. On my current machines I see no reason to consider it.
When Innocenti designed the original lambretta they were working to a bhp of around 10. We regularly see or hear of machines chucking out 30bhp and with the 305 engine we talking about 50+ bhp. Any engineer worth his salt will tell you that when the load increases by 3-5 times the original it's time to look at all of the components and see if they can withstand the pressure.
Well done Casa for thinking about it. It may not be for everyone but it is an option that is now available (if you have the money)

[CHRIS in MARGATE]

Well hats off to those putting up cash for R & D. Will there be a sufficient market to recoup the investment and make a decent return as we hardened enthusiasts get older ? Will the next generation sidestep our marque and purchase an all singing, all dancing powerful auto ?
Yes, I have new developments fitted to my scoot: Disc brake, expansion, tubeless, etc etc but I won't be investing in this so as they say on Dragons Den....I'm out.
But good luck.

[HxPaul]

Revealed exclusively a week or so ago.

Based on an Innocenti mould, internally strengthened and with a dedicated 8-point-fixing tubeless alloy wheel rim to match. More info to follow on SLUK.

From a practical point of view, (unless a front hub has been made to compliment the rear hub ),then a spare wheel would only fit one hub so unless you carry two spare wheels you are stuffed if you have a puncture on the one wheel you dont have a spare for.

[CHRIS in MARGATE]

Aha. I thought I was bright and I missed that one !

[Marty ULC]

Surely a rim that fits the rear hub will also fit a standard front hub assuming the studs are compatible. There'd just be 4 unused holes.

[HxPaul]

Surely a rim that fits the rear hub will also fit a standard front hub assuming the studs are compatible. There'd just be 4 unused holes.

A standard wheel would already have four studs inserted which will prevent it from fitting on the rear hub.The only way that an eight stud wheel would fit is to use tubeless rims and you would have to drill the four extra holes or remove the studs in the hub.

[coaster]

Being a tubeless rim, why carry a spare rim? just carry a tubeless puncture repair kit and some gas canister inflators. You don't see any motorbikes or modern scooters carrying spares

[HxPaul]

Being a tubeless rim, why carry a spare rim? just carry a tubeless puncture repair kit and some gas canister inflators. You don't see any motorbikes or modern scooters carrying spares

What if you damage the tyre ( sidewall or a split on the tread )

[Marty ULC]

Surely a rim that fits the rear hub will also fit a standard front hub assuming the studs are compatible. There'd just be 4 unused holes.

A standard wheel would already have four studs inserted which will prevent it from fitting on the rear hub.The only way that an eight stud wheel would fit is to use tubeless rims and you would have to drill the four extra holes or remove the studs in the hub.

Where did I say you would fit a standard rim to the rear hub?
You would carry an 8 hole spare. This would also fit on the front hub as long as the 4 studs in the front hub were long enough.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Despite the risk of further controversy, I can’t help wonder why anybody would imagine four studs insufficient for the likely torque from a 50 bhp engine.

Compare ‘our’ current set-up with that of, say, a modern turbo diesel car.

The Lambretta has four M8 studs on a PCD of about 225 mm.

A typical car has five M12/M14 studs on a much smaller PCD of about 110 mm.

Despite ‘only’ M8 studs, the Lambretta with the greater PCD has a huge mechanical advantage yet the torque to be transmitted might be less than a fifth of the car, bearing in mind the differential may well divert all force to one wheel of the car!

I’ve suggested previously in this thread about quantifying things, rather than making suppositions.

As for OEM layshafts, if ever I were to experience a breakage, I’d make sure I knew why & have it analysed for the full picture.

[HxPaul]

Surely a rim that fits the rear hub will also fit a standard front hub assuming the studs are compatible. There'd just be 4 unused holes.

A standard wheel would already have four studs inserted which will prevent it from fitting on the rear hub.The only way that an eight stud wheel would fit is to use tubeless rims and you would have to drill the four extra holes or remove the studs in the hub.

In that post it should read "........to use tubeless rims OR you would have to drill..........."

[Jim Rose]

We are all trying to second guess why Casa have designed and built a very expensive rear hub and layshaft. I doubt that Casa will be on this site to answer our comments but here is another thought.

I spoke to JB Tuning a few weeks ago about when the BGT 305 was going to be available.I was told that they were waiting for the new rear hub before production started. We know that the 305 was extensively road tested last year to iron out any kinks. This is a bit of a leap, but perhaps one of those "kinks" was a rear hub / wheel issue. if that is the case then the new hub may have been developed to deal with the problem.

I used to have an RB 25 engine and one of the reasons I got rid of it was the torque shredded two good hubs (one Spanish) when I was giving it the beans and that had nowhere near the power the BCG has.

[Knowledge]

Anyone with a drill could make the wheel to fit.

Really?

A traditional split rim will not fit without removing the four studs on the rim (and a very difficult building on the hub).

An SIP rim would need to be drilled and milled to get the securing nuts to sit properly. You have also got to get the new holes in the right place.

Other rims might be easier to modify, but my point is that if an 8 stud hub is not necessary, then an 8 hole rim isn't necessary either.

[rossclark]

All you'd need to do would be move it round, say 15 degrees and drill new holes.

It was a slightly tongue in cheek suggestion TBH...

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

I used to have an RB 25 engine and one of the reasons I got rid of it was the torque shredded two good hubs (one Spanish) when I was giving it the beans and that had nowhere near the power the BCG has.

Sorry to hear that you had hubs fail. I wonder if your failures were similar in manner to my own experience.....

I should explain:

It may be little consolation, but I believe that OEM hubs were designed to fail in the best 'failsafe' manner. That is, when they break, the fracture means the broken outer part, complete with tyre & rim, goes toward the crankcase, rather than away from it. Whenever I had it occur, most notably @ Pembrey, I was able to maintain some control to allow me to get off track. I have never had, or know of, any Spanish hub failing in racing, but that is not a finite statement of facts by any means. However, I continue to believe that 'good' Spanish OEM hubs are the strongest option available currently.

Obviously, we need to distinguish the differences between the hub failing & rims coming loose, for whatever reason that may be.