Stuck rings

[johnnyXS]

its not the oil that is the problem its the temperature the engine is run at that causes the oil to burn .

If you run with a lean mixture or your engine is running hotter for some reason like sustained long runs on hot days then that is when the oil can cause problems .

I did 2 days of 230 mile German Autobahn runs in 37/38C going to the Euro using 3% Exol without issue, this is on Mugello kit with M Tech adv'/retard which helps with cooling though. Used it in all my scooters for 3/4 years now without problem.

Rich'

very good point Rich.
very few scoots have adjustable advance and retard and consequently have too much advance at high revs resulting in reduced performance and higher temperatures.
I bet your muggy revs to 8000rpm+ which is probably 2000rpm beyond what the original engine and air cooling system is designed to cope with

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Unless I’ve missed it, you haven’t mentioned squish.

As already mentioned, the piston does look like it’s just hitting the head....

I doubt it’s the oil. It’s an excellent product for an air-cooled motor & underrated IMO.

[Mag]

Unless I’ve missed it, you haven’t mentioned squish.

As already mentioned, the piston does look like it’s just hitting the head....

I doubt it’s the oil. It’s an excellent product for an air-cooled motor & underrated IMO.

#

I my experience Mark Broadhurst knows how to set up squish and compression. There are no marks on the piston or head from contact, all that is visible is a lack of carbon adhered to parts of the head. There is carbon right to the edge of the piston.

If this set up lead to piston to head contact it must have done so for several years without me noticing.

[johnnyXS]

Unless I’ve missed it, you haven’t mentioned squish.

As already mentioned, the piston does look like it’s just hitting the head....

I doubt it’s the oil. It’s an excellent product for an air-cooled motor & underrated IMO.

#

.

If this set up lead to piston to head contact it must have done so for several years without me noticing.

no you're right there is no possibilty of that .
Anyway if the piston was hitting the head you'd sure know about it in very short order

Looks like some of the coke has detached from the head which shows that it is most likely oil fouled carbon build up .
If that engine was built by Mark b then thats as good a recommendation as they get

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

TOPIC REVIEW: STUCK RINGS
Re: Stuck rings
Post by johnnyXS » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:01 am

Mag wrote:
Warkton Tornado No.1 wrote:
Unless I’ve missed it, you haven’t mentioned squish.

As already mentioned, the piston does look like it’s just hitting the head....

I doubt it’s the oil. It’s an excellent product for an air-cooled motor & underrated IMO.
#

.

If this set up lead to piston to head contact it must have done so for several years without me noticing.


no you're right there is no possibilty of that .
Anyway if the piston was hitting the head you'd sure know about it in very short order

Rather than speculate on anything that “might be right” regardless of a tuner’s reputation, the bottom line is that for all the opinions that may be stated, I can’t imagine that the most pro-active enthusiasts on this Forum would build an engine without knowing the squish!

FFS, it can be measured in an assembled engine in less time than it takes to type a response/try & score points.

It varies with any change of piston/gaskets t & particularly if the combustion area is not centralised to the bore/piston.

I may well be wrong, but I’m not sure why, by starting a Post on this Forum, you invite opinion/help & then are so dismissive of some well-intentioned responses without knowing all the facts

[Mag]

TOPIC REVIEW: STUCK RINGS
Re: Stuck rings
Post by johnnyXS » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:01 am

Mag wrote:
Warkton Tornado No.1 wrote:
Unless I’ve missed it, you haven’t mentioned squish.

As already mentioned, the piston does look like it’s just hitting the head....

I doubt it’s the oil. It’s an excellent product for an air-cooled motor & underrated IMO.
#

.

If this set up lead to piston to head contact it must have done so for several years without me noticing.


no you're right there is no possibilty of that .
Anyway if the piston was hitting the head you'd sure know about it in very short order

Rather than speculate on anything that “might be right” regardless of a tuner’s reputation, the bottom line is that for all the opinions that may be stated, I can’t imagine that the most pro-active enthusiasts on this Forum would build an engine without knowing the squish!

FFS, it can be measured in an assembled engine in less time than it takes to type a response/try & score points.

It varies with any change of piston/gaskets t & particularly if the combustion area is not centralised to the bore/piston.

I may well be wrong, but I’m not sure why, by starting a Post on this Forum, you invite opinion/help & then are so dismissive of some well-intentioned responses without knowing all the facts

Don't remember the bit where I said I didn't measure it.

[johnnyXS]

he's been like that ever since he swallowed that dictionary last year

Mag It might be worth doing a leak down test to check the oil seals if you haven't already done so. Sticky posted a great DIY leak down proceedure somewhere on here or was it on the SLUK site ?....danged if I can remember now

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Re: Stuck rings
Post by Mag » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:21 pm

Warkton Tornado No.1 wrote:
TOPIC REVIEW: STUCK RINGS
Re: Stuck rings
Post by johnnyXS » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:01 am

Mag wrote:
Warkton Tornado No.1 wrote:
Unless I’ve missed it, you haven’t mentioned squish.

As already mentioned, the piston does look like it’s just hitting the head....

I doubt it’s the oil. It’s an excellent product for an air-cooled motor & underrated IMO.
#

.

If this set up lead to piston to head contact it must have done so for several years without me noticing.


no you're right there is no possibilty of that .
Anyway if the piston was hitting the head you'd sure know about it in very short order




Rather than speculate on anything that “might be right” regardless of a tuner’s reputation, the bottom line is that for all the opinions that may be stated, I can’t imagine that the most pro-active enthusiasts on this Forum would build an engine without knowing the squish!

FFS, it can be measured in an assembled engine in less time than it takes to type a response/try & score points.

It varies with any change of piston/gaskets t & particularly if the combustion area is not centralised to the bore/piston.

I may well be wrong, but I’m not sure why, by starting a Post on this Forum, you invite opinion/help & then are so dismissive of some well-intentioned responses without knowing all the facts


Don't remember the bit where I said I didn't measure it.

I don't remember the bit where you said you did measure it!

Nor, for that matter the Compression Ratio. Somebody PM'd me which reminded me of that likelihood. They prefer not to get embroiled in the sh1te that often comes about in attempts to help..

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

[quote][/quote]

Re: Stuck rings
Post by johnnyXS » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:26 pm

he's been like that ever since he swallowed that dictionary last year

Mag It might be worth doing a leak down test to check the oil seals if you haven't already done so. Sticky posted a great DIY leak down proceedure somewhere on here or was it on the SLUK site ?....danged if I can remember now



If I swallowed a dictionary, it’s probably more acceptable for my health than what you might like....

You certainly have an appetite then bleat about your ‘issues’ because you’re overweight!

To my knowledge you’ve been rude to people via PM’s & even had a go @ Knowledge on here who would never sink to your level.

[dickie]

Goodness me! Apologies for my language.

I thought this was just about stuck piston rings?

Take it easy. No need to get excited gents.

[Knowledge]

To my knowledge you’ve been rude to people via PM’s & even had a go @ Knowledge on here who would never sink to your level.

If Johnny did, and I have no collection of a PM, then no harm was done. I am happy to make this my last post on this thread.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Re: Stuck rings
Post by Knowledge » Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:38 am

Warkton Tornado No.1 wrote:

To my knowledge you’ve been rude to people via PM’s & even had a go @ Knowledge on here who would never sink to your level.


If Johnny did, and I have no collection of a PM, then no harm was done. I am happy to make this my last post on this thread.

Hi Knowledge.

I didn't say that he'd sent you PM's. He has to another Forum user, though, that remains upset.

Below is a reminder of the 'spat' you & I were embroiled in not long ago, courtesy of Johnie eXtra Small

I just wish he'd kept to his 'threat' in the red font. Unfortunately, such a turncoat as him cannot be consistent.

Re: Float valve
Postby Knowledge » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:10 pm

johnnyXS wrote:
However I thought we were discussing a road going scooter with the op so I was surprised that you brought up electric fuel pumps ?


WT1 didn't bring up electric pumps, you did Johnny. The pulse pumps works off crankcase primary compression to push petrol into the supply loop to the carb, but it does not need electricity

I have used one on a fuel in the frame race bike and I have seen them used on large frame Vespas where there is little head on the standard tank.

You can also get diaphragm operated fuel taps. Although they use similar principles as the diaphragm pumps, they are just a fuel tap that will only flow fuel when the engine is running. I have one on my road scooter, so I don't need to turn the fuel on and off.
User avatar
Knowledge

Posts: 569
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 11:42 am
Location: Ipswich
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Re: Float valve
Postby Warkton Tornado No.1 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:03 am

Knowledge » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:10 pm

johnnyXS wrote:
However I thought we were discussing a road going scooter with the op so I was surprised that you brought up electric fuel pumps ?



WT1 didn't bring up electric pumps, you did Johnny.


shoot.JPG
Warkton Tornado No.1

Posts: 511
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:27 pm
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Re: Float valve
Postby johnnyXS » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:28 am

Knowledge wrote:
johnnyXS wrote:
However I thought we were discussing a road going scooter with the op so I was surprised that you brought up electric fuel pumps ?


WT1 didn't bring up electric pumps, you did Johnny. The pulse pumps works off crankcase primary compression to push petrol into the supply loop to the carb, but it does not need electricity

I have used one on a fuel in the frame race bike and I have seen them used on large frame Vespas where there is little head on the standard tank.

You can also get diaphragm operated fuel taps. Although they use similar principles as the diaphragm pumps, they are just a fuel tap that will only flow fuel when the engine is running. I have one on my road scooter, so I don't need to turn the fuel on and off.


yes that was a typo ...I meant pulse pumps, which was what was being discussed.

However you and that verbose wittering walkton have taken this thread completely off topic for your own ends and your posts are unhelpful and irrelevant to the OPs question.

Why don't you both add something to the thread that addresses the OPs question and is helpful (if you can )... instead of taking every opportunity to make personal attacks on other members who are trying to be helpful.

As your posts are unhelpful I have added both of you to my 'foe' list so I don't have to read any more of WK's inane rambling so you'll both be wasting your time adding any further unhelpful off topic comments for me to read because I'll no longer see them
johnnyXS

Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:00 pm

[gaz_powell]

Mag - if it's any help I've been using exol ss in all my bikes for years now - no issues on the TS1s with rings at every strip but on the vespa they were gummed up in a relatively quick time, around 1000 miles but this I believe was due to excessive bore to piston clearance and worn rings. As I hardly use the vespa I just cleaned it up and put new rings in it - took it for test yesterday and noted it had only 18miles since !

I recently strip my mates iron barrel 200 to have it stage 4 tuned. About 1000 miles in and the rings were free again using the exol ss.

[johnnyXS]

got to give it a good blast. Parked up out side the pub, but when I went to start it back up half an hour later in had no compression,


]

if you look at the image of your head it looks to me like your head gasket has been leaking all round the gasket mating surface . The gasket surface should be clean and free of any burnt oil or coke just a gasket or liquid gasket whichever you used.
I suspect at some point on your 'good blast' run,(or before) your head gasket blew which could explain your lack of compression perhaps

[Mag]

After several hours work I have both rings out. There is a black deposit on the rings and over the total surface of the ring gap with no sign of the top ring gap deforming. As stated already when I cleaned up the bottom gap it was fine.

Both rings were stuck fast fully compressed into the grooves and I think this is the cause.

I did spot the discolouration on the head and when rebuilding I will do a compression and leak down test. There are no gaskets on this set up, relying on quality sealant. I didn't see and flucuation in exhaust gas temperature or sense any difference to the way the bike performed, felt or sounded, but it's always best to check everything anyway.

I'd like to thank the many people contributing to this thread, its always good to hear others opinions. I am sorry the thread did get a little heated at times, especially as we are only talking about a souped up Italian (Indian) shopping bike, which in the scene of things is not important enough to be falling out over.

Cheers

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Re: Stuck rings
Post by Mag » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:20 pm

I did spot the discolouration on the head and when rebuilding I will do a compression and leak down test.

Unless you already know that head volume, you’d be well advised to check out your compression ratio.

By eye, that cylinder head does look low volume, BWTF do I know

[Mag]

Sorry, thought I'd brought this thread to a diplomatic end. I will not be responding to any more posts/provocations and apologise for starting this thread in the first place.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Of course, I'm sure most of the readers respect your stance & tact to ‘close’ this scenario, especially the un-invited aspects that take it all off topic.

Nonetheless, with respect, final feedback on what the actual problem(s) were would be appreciated....

Thank you in anticipation.

[xenia1]

I love reading threads like this as although theres little i dont know about a truck diesel, i know little about the technicalities of a 2T and its a shame interesting threads like this have to end because of a name calling slanging match

[Meds]

Agree completly, these threads are really interesting.
I'm running EXoil fully synthetic in 2 motors (one iron, the other Nickasil) at 4%, I have done around 2000 miles between them and haven't had a problem. I changed due to the good reviews.It's smokey on start up but seems to clear quickly.
The reason I'm interested it this fault has a common cause and we are blaming an oil, I think we should be looking at other contributing factors, like
Over oiling and running hot.
Fuel/oil additive reactions
Oil/heat/material interactions, ie something in the rings or piston acting as a catalyst.
If there are any chemists amongst us can they please add to the reasoning.

Just a thought, the oil is gumming up and solidifying in the rings causing them to stick. Symptom.
Could the oil be collecting in the area cooking off the lighter parts and leaving some form of tar that solidifies and shrinks as it cools.
That might sound daft, but two of the posters have said, running fine stopped and lost compression,
If the rings were jammed in before they stopped it wouldn't have run, so the ring positions are likely to have changed state after they stopped, hence the shrinkage and jamming.
This is only a hypothesis, and as such can be challenged/supported