TS1 250 + box pipe = ?

[Knowledge]

A good mate (LCGB member) has a TS1 that he is thinking of boosting with a 62 or 64mm stroke. However, he needs to fit a box pipe like a BGM clubman or Gori.

Bearing in mind that most clubman restrict power to 18bhp, what would such an engine perform like?

Discuss.

[rexton270s]

i have struggled with pipes on my avanti! jl4 was the best power but totally a pain to keep the power on, franny supertourer again the engine felt great in the power band but out the band gutless,now put a AF 48mm clubman and its made the kit work for a living with the wide range of low to mild and a little high revs! yes i have lost top speed but gained rideability!

[bike grim]

Harry has just modified my old Gori 50 sport with a large dia tailpipe for my Pro Porting 283 as he reckoned it would over heat the big cc engine as the original tailpipe is around 22mm. (The 48 clubman on rexton270's Avanti has a tailpipe of 27mm as we measured it the other day. That's right isn't it?).

My motor dyno'd with the modded Gori lost 4bhp and 4ftlb torque in a back to back test against the Supertourer. I haven't ridden on the road yet though so cannot comment whether this loss in over overall power affects the ride too much or not. I will try to do this over the next few days weather permitting.

[rexton270s]

bike grim,the calculations are correct! advice of ron moss for the avanti tail pipe from the carcus at least 25mm! or risk over heating !

[Knowledge]

Bike Grim,

Let me know how you get on, but at least you have your ProPorting 283........

Martin

[Simon ELC]

I've tried various pipes on my TS1 253 (64x71)
Super Tourer
AF NK Road
Robbospeed
BGM clubman

The best performer with my port timings was the AF NK Road for both power and rideability.

[Knowledge]

Thanks Simon, but the question was not about which pipe was the best performer, but what would a 250 with a box pipe perform like?

When you tried it with the BGM, was the engine in a state of tune that would make it a good trans European tourer? What was the mid-range like? Might it have been better if the tail pipe was larger?

Thanks

[Knowledge]

Advice from Ron moss for the avanti tail pipe from the carcus at least 25mm or risk over heating !

I remember that AF introduced a clubman with a 25mm tail pipe. Ian Frankland told me it added 500rpm to the top end of the motor, so clearly the quicker liberation of the gas benefitted the engine's performance. However, I imagine that a Gori with a 25mm exit pipe would not be popular with the neighbours.

[holty]

i was tempted to go down the box type exhaust for my new rotax project, but the only one that would be anywhere near would be the 48mm af vw clubman, they pull like a train but they must be the loudest lammy exhaust you can buy, and they do attract pc plods attention quite a lot, i think an expansion is a better match for a ts1, but then again if its a 250 it depends on your port timings as well , and how you like to ride.

[carlos fandango]

I switched from a supertourer to an RM clubman on a dyno session i had last year.
The ST on my ts230 ,did around 23bhp , straight swap for the RM clubman ...no other changes apart from an increase in MJ, as it was weak , and it did 15 bhp !
I did two rallies Modra and Whitby with the RM set up, and it didnt feel like it was 1/3 down on power. Top speed was down but not by much , what i did notice , and didnt like , was the lack of a noticeable power band kick , especially when "cruising" on the m/way (60ish ) when overtaking lorries, normally twist the throttle and accelerate past, but with the clubman it needed "planning" a bit more in advance , id need to build up to it
On the plus side , it was nice and quiet

[Andy B.L.C.]

Did you notice an increase in four wheeled boxes at 90 degrees to your on a main road right of way...? Loud pipes save lives...

[Knowledge]

Good review Carlos F.

If I can summarise this thread, I would say that a box pipe will knock-off several bhp and some top speed, but not necessarily give you the heap of torque in the mid-range that one might have hoped for.

If you choose to fit a box pipe to a BIG engine, make sure it has a 25mm tail pipe and have neighbours who are already hard of hearing.

A better option would be a curly expansion pipe.

Does anyone have anything else to add?

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Post by Knowledge » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:15 am

Does anyone have anything else to add?

Well, you did ask Martin...

A Clubman type exhaust is always going to be a compromise that most accept, reasoning that power delivery, ultimate power & torque, along with aesthetics are different to a more purpose built expansion chamber.

However, they won't add torque to an already torquey engine just as a recent Post about the Gran Turismo kit proved

What nobody else seems to have mentioned is the grounding issue!

This was a problem in the 70's when tyres were as grippy as knitted sh1te, so how do riders cope with right-handers with decent rubber on?

Isn't one of the joys of owning our modified Italian shopping machines the grin factor when you can catch up the 'blast-past-on-the-straight-bikers' on the twisty bits & seeing them do a double take?

Although this response is partly tongue-in-cheek, it is an issue to consider, bearing in mind how much time & effort will often be spent modifying the rest of the machine.

Then again, perhaps it's just me....

[coaster]

I suspect that Martin's friend doesn't like the modern look of an expansion hence the mention of a curly as a possible option. I agree about the limited ground clearance issues but some expansions are no better if not worse especially over bumps

[Adam_Winstone]

One of the issues that people often seem to overlook is that we tend to lump all box type pipes into one category, which is no more realistic than talking about 'fitting an expansion' as though all expansions return the same performance across the rev range, which clearly they do not. Indeed, fit a genuine Taff Road pipe to a TS1 and you will have a completely different peak power, completely different peak revs, completely different powerband range and completely different gearing requirement than if you had fitted the same motor with a JL4, PM, some of the Kegra pipes, etc. The same goes with 'box type pipes.

It has made me snigger to myself when people have been pointing out just how well/high some box type pipes can rev, suggesting that many box types can rev further than many expansions. Yes, that's true, but many expansions can rev beyond other expansions, and many box pipes rev a mile beyond other box pipes. We really do need to stop lumping box pipes into just one category... unless you are prepared to consider all expansions as being the same too.

Holty has already mentioned the excellent TS1 performance offered by 'SOME' of the VW options out there. Indeed, 20 or more years ago I was loving the power delivery of my straight through AF 48mm VW clubman on my TS1, however, the noise was extreme and I got stopped a number of times. This prompted me to go back to AF and ask them to do me a standard tailpipe type (slightly larger diameter) version of the same. This was in the days before Indian AF clubmans and was made in the UK. The pipe fitted beautifully... but the pipe restricted the revs so much that the pipe called it a day on revs before the TS1 even started to get into its stride., converting a previously great ride into something completely underwhelming. Missing the powerband by 1000-1500 rpm is the same as missing the power by a mile, giving the sensation of always being in the wrong gear and 'hitting the rev wall/ceiling' just before it comes to life (like riding a standard P-range... you just can't rev them).

However, things have changed in more recent years and the work that was put into developing a new breed of 'super clubmans'. Personally, I saw things start to change with the Ancillotti that came out for early Imola use, which as a mini TS1 needed to reach the revs that the kit's porting wanted to work at. Saxelby already had a well respected clubman that I'd put into this category, which allowed some of my iron motors reach a slightly higher rpm powerband than some of the other generic clubman pipes simply couldn't reach (box type but certainly not to be thought of in super clubman terms). However, my Ron Moss clubman pipes, of which I own 2, took the performance of these same motors to a whole other rpm and performance level, with my tacho indicating at least another 1000 rpm over rev on the same Avanti TT3 and Mugello 260 motor that I ran them on... noting that noise level made me change the TT3 to a Fran Supertourer but the Moss clubman is still on my 260 and rides like a dream.

One thing to note is that the Mugello 260 was initially intended to run on the 48 standard tailpipe clubman that I mentioned previously (AF but pre Indian clubman days), however, this caused a gradual heat buildup in the pipe as it simply couldn't shift enough gas out quick enough. This showed frighteningly on my EGT gauge and was terrifying to watch on Readspeed's dyno as the U-bend changed from cold to cherry red, then beyond to bright orange!!!!!!!!! Yikes! No fueling, compression, porting or timing changes could stop this, however, the bike changed the instant that I changed the pipe to the old straight through VW, later changing to the Moss clubman. Please note that my EGT and tacho use allows me to swap configurations and see very obvious changes in return from one configuration to another, rather than trying to judge by ear, feel or variable (!) Lambretta speedo alone

The last decade's clubman development, designed and revised with the benefits offered by dynos, mirrors the last decade's expansion development. By that I'm not suggesting that the performance is the same between all box pipes and all expansions (FAR FROM IT) but people would very quickly argue back if someone were to suggest that all expansions were one and the same... and so it should be for anyone suggesting that box type pipes are the same. Rather, box type pipes have a MASSIVE range of performance, from power spread to rev ceiling (and noise!), along with all the same issues of quality, fit and ground clearance that we find in expansions too.

We also need to bear in mind that the spec of the motor (cc and porting spec) has a massive influence on suitability of pipe. Some revvy pipes will never reach their powerband as the cylinder's porting cuts in as the rev limiting factor prior to coming onto the pipe, and some revvy motors will never reach their cylinder's porting power as the pipe is the rev limiter before the cylinder reaches the revs it needs. In both of these cases it is neither the fault of the cylinder nor the pipe, rather the fault of the builder that opted to use A with B.

So, what will probably work in this case? Well, as Holty touched on, I have no doubt that my 48mm straight through VW clubman would work perfectly... however, a 48 VW based on one of AFs current clubmans would kill it straight away, unless it was completely gutted and reworked internally.... my VW would also put your neighbour's windows through (I kid you not!). A Ron Moss clubman would almost certainly work, which is supported by a number of people running them very happily on TS1s, including on a couple of bikes used for Euro Lambretta long hauls and my pal Bruce running one on his Taffspeed tuned TS1 that he rode to IoM with me a few years back. NB that both of these 'box type' clubmans do not restrict flow out much but that they also let a lot of noise escape too, so much that I have had to take them off various motors of mine, which otherwise rode wonderfully and reliably. When noise reaches these levels then I have to conclude that they have 'failed' to perform on this factor, however, the same pipes are not too loud on motors with smaller exhaust ports. Personally, from experience of running my standard tailpipe RS clubman on my TT3 and 260, I'd suggest that this might not work too well on the suggested motor, yet this pipe has been a wonderful performer on an iron 225 and Rapido 200, both configurations that I've rallied on. MB/BGM super clubman... not sure. I've got a new one sitting in its box but the frequency of issue at last year's Euro has made me think twice about fitting it (NB: Scooter Centre have changed manufacturer and this should no longer be an issue) but the performance of earlier versions has put it into this super clubman bracket... but from what I've seen/heard I would put it somewhere between the RS clubman and the Ron Moss clubman as far as ability to rev on to the higher revs that many of today's ported kits need to reach to operate correctly.

Box pipes are not all the same... nor are expansions.

Adam

PS - Sorry for the waffle and sorry that I can't muster the energy to proof read / re-read the message above Cheers all.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

All of this debate is healthy, surely any readers would agree.

Obviously all box type pipes, clubmans, call them what you will, are not all the same. Ironically, perhaps the couple of best performers are also the hardest to obtain from Ralph or Ron.

Similarly, expansion chambers are not all the same.

However, the likelihood is that with careful selection of an expansion chamber, it is more probable that more of a modified engine’s potential can be obtained.

Again, I would imagine most readers would agree. The last time I built my own SX Rapido (Ø71 x 61 mm) I had the choice of an old Ø 42 mm Ancillotti, an old Ø 50 mm Ancillotti & a Peter Gibson custom made expansion chamber to try.

I ran the last two briefly, but, in the event, I made my own clubman based on a Ø45 mm short ‘U’pipe, long front cone, longish reverse cone & an inch band cut out of the side for ground clearance. It was noisy with a VW muffler even with the internal wadding of the ‘box retained. It also ran hot. So, I added a Ø25 mm bleed with a cheap ali muffler that calms it down. I’m pleased with the result but, although it is torquey with it being a Rapido, I doubt it is anywhere close to the 25bhp that the Gibson delivered on a Ø66 x 60 Rapido. Recently, I modified it yet again by rubber mounting it to augment the sprung slip joint already fitted. I haven’t managed to ground it either, but I do use a SII length damper.

That predictable experience is why I would venture to suggest that, for similar money to the best clubmans (made from purest unobtainium..) an expansion chamber could be commissioned (or even DIY manufactured) given the availability of software programs, that would give good results.

You only have to look @ the latest offerings from Italian tuning houses to see that the exhausts they have built combine within the package to give a very tractable result. Which should perhaps encourage others to try & do the same.

I think I would go that route if I were to build a reed valve engine for the road.

I hope my particular ‘waffle’ helps & it must be heartening that this debate has evolved further.

[Knowledge]

Blimey Adam, that post would have made a good Oily Rag article.

I have reminded my mate to catch up with the thread, but to allow some time to read it all.

This really is a very good forum, isn't it?

[Phil D]

This really is a very good forum, isn't it?

Sure is
A lot of it goes over my head but learn a lot

[bike grim]

Harry has just modified my old Gori 50 sport with a large dia tailpipe for my Pro Porting 283 as he reckoned it would over heat the big cc engine as the original tailpipe is around 22mm. (The 48 clubman on rexton270's Avanti has a tailpipe of 27mm as we measured it the other day. That's right isn't it?).

My motor dyno'd with the modded Gori lost 4bhp and 4ftlb torque in a back to back test against the Supertourer. I haven't ridden on the road yet though so cannot comment whether this loss in over overall power affects the ride too much or not. I will try to do this over the next few days weather permitting.

I have now been for a 20 minute ride on the 283 with the modded Gori pipe and it rides lovely. Doesn't have the little hiccup that the supertourer has when riding at steady revs (4300-4500rpm) I haven't nailed it flat out but it doesn't appear to have sapped that much at the bottom end. I even overtook some Hells Angel prospect on his Harley clone at about 70mph but then I rolled off a bit. Reckon it won't have the same top speed as with the supertourer but that doesn't bother me. Not too loud either, I'd say about the same is the supertourer (but not as nice sounding) with that unmistakable big bore clubman echo.

Still needs a bit of tidy up but wanted to try it first and worry about paint etc later (matches the rest of the scooter)