Off-set cones

[Solid Air]

Does anyone else find fitting and removing the engine bolt from off-set cones a total pain and have a way of making it easier?

Cheers, Mark

[coaster]

A pain in what way? I used Loctite bearing fixer on mine but greased the engine bar just in case any glue seeped through. I had to remove it several times since and it's been no bother and the cones have stayed in place

[Solid Air]

Hi Coaster, the cones do move but it's more the actual locating and removing of the bar from the frame and cones. It's seems very awkward to line up all the holes to then push the bar through which itself is difficult. I'm wondering if the bar is a slightly thicker one too?

Cheers

[Solid Air]

Just had another look with fresh eyes... the cones are VERY tight on the bar. Also, removing the rear suspension will give a touch extra movement that helps to line everything up and then thread the bar through easier.

Must learn to walk away sometimes and think about a problem instead of bashing on regardless. If you've got to hit it with a hammer then something's wrong... unless you're hitting a nail

[coaster]

I fitted mu cones to gain some clearance when I fitted a reed valve to my Avanti. Despite the cones the manifold still touched the frame and needed grinding away in places to clear. It took probably 10 engine drops and by the end I'd got it off to a fine art. I found it best to drop the shock and lay along the seat, lift engine by the exhaust manifold and wiggle the bar into the off side mount until it engaged with the cone and then gently push or tap the bar through with a rubber mallet until it reached the nearside cone. Then more wiggling and checking by eye and tapping with the rubber mallet.

[missing lynx]

I always fit the engine bar/bolt before the back shocker I would imagine it would be a struggle to do it with the spring on also I use a length of wood on a piviot point like a see saw to lift it with my knee leaving both hand free

[SlackerThePinstriper]

What are the off set cones for

Iyll be building a frame up very soon and noticed these but no clue?

Also is a special tool needed to fit frame cones?

[holty]

Off-set engine cones were made made to help move the inlet manifold of the ts1 barrel away from the frame as the original design was very close and would often lead to the 2 rubbing together causing bad vibrations, further tuning of the ts1 showed adding a packer plate behind the reedvalve would open up the boost port more and improve performance, but reduced clearance is also a problem and off-set cones help to give a bigger gap between inlet and frame, other cylinders with a reedvalve might have the same need for extra clearance, I'm building an engine at the moment that is crankcase induction and the inlet is very close to the bumpstop, I'm using a longer shocker and off-set cones to give the clearance I need.
The cones are of a tapered design and simply push into the frame, by hand, they do have an inclination to rotate when the bolt is pushed through so using studlock to glue them in place seems to be a good solution, the centre hole is off-set so both cones need to be fitted as a mirror image to make sure the alignment of the engine stays straight

[SlackerThePinstriper]

Off-set engine cones were made made to help move the inlet manifold of the ts1 barrel away from the frame as the original design was very close and would often lead to the 2 rubbing together causing bad vibrations, further tuning of the ts1 showed adding a packer plate behind the reedvalve would open up the boost port more and improve performance, but reduced clearance is also a problem and off-set cones help to give a bigger gap between inlet and frame, other cylinders with a reedvalve might have the same need for extra clearance, I'm building an engine at the moment that is crankcase induction and the inlet is very close to the bumpstop, I'm using a longer shocker and off-set cones to give the clearance I need.
The cones are of a tapered design and simply push into the frame, by hand, they do have an inclination to rotate when the bolt is pushed through so using studlock to glue them in place seems to be a good solution, the centre hole is off-set so both cones need to be fitted as a mirror image to make sure the alignment of the engine stays straight

Cheers for that mate, won't be needing those then lol

[Scooterdude]

Off-set engine cones were made made to help move the inlet manifold of the ts1 barrel away from the frame as the original design was very close and would often lead to the 2 rubbing together causing bad vibrations, further tuning of the ts1 showed adding a packer plate behind the reedvalve would open up the boost port more and improve performance, but reduced clearance is also a problem and off-set cones help to give a bigger gap between inlet and frame, other cylinders with a reedvalve might have the same need for extra clearance, I'm building an engine at the moment that is crankcase induction and the inlet is very close to the bumpstop, I'm using a longer shocker and off-set cones to give the clearance I need.
The cones are of a tapered design and simply push into the frame, by hand, they do have an inclination to rotate when the bolt is pushed through so using studlock to glue them in place seems to be a good solution, the centre hole is off-set so both cones need to be fitted as a mirror image to make sure the alignment of the engine stays straight

Probably not in most cases but maybe in yours would it not just be all that much easier to remove the engine bar tube and reposition it say 10-15 mm lower? For those that go with offset cones, once you find the right position you can weld them in place otherwise they will move over time.... just saying..

[holty]

Off-set engine cones were made made to help move the inlet manifold of the ts1 barrel away from the frame as the original design was very close and would often lead to the 2 rubbing together causing bad vibrations, further tuning of the ts1 showed adding a packer plate behind the reedvalve would open up the boost port more and improve performance, but reduced clearance is also a problem and off-set cones help to give a bigger gap between inlet and frame, other cylinders with a reedvalve might have the same need for extra clearance, I'm building an engine at the moment that is crankcase induction and the inlet is very close to the bumpstop, I'm using a longer shocker and off-set cones to give the clearance I need.
The cones are of a tapered design and simply push into the frame, by hand, they do have an inclination to rotate when the bolt is pushed through so using studlock to glue them in place seems to be a good solution, the centre hole is off-set so both cones need to be fitted as a mirror image to make sure the alignment of the engine stays straight

Probably not in most cases but maybe in yours would it not just be all that much easier to remove the engine bar tube and reposition it say 10-15 mm lower? For those that go with offset cones, once you find the right position you can weld them in place otherwise they will move over time.... just saying..

Yes that is something I did consider, but I don't want to alter the frame in all honesty, I have been thinking about adding a grubscrew to the cone, so I would just drill a hole in the tube and thread the grubscrew into the cone, thus making the cone unable to turn when the engine is fitted, can also use standard cones later.

[Scooterdude]

Off-set engine cones were made made to help move the inlet manifold of the ts1 barrel away from the frame as the original design was very close and would often lead to the 2 rubbing together causing bad vibrations, further tuning of the ts1 showed adding a packer plate behind the reedvalve would open up the boost port more and improve performance, but reduced clearance is also a problem and off-set cones help to give a bigger gap between inlet and frame, other cylinders with a reedvalve might have the same need for extra clearance, I'm building an engine at the moment that is crankcase induction and the inlet is very close to the bumpstop, I'm using a longer shocker and off-set cones to give the clearance I need.
The cones are of a tapered design and simply push into the frame, by hand, they do have an inclination to rotate when the bolt is pushed through so using studlock to glue them in place seems to be a good solution, the centre hole is off-set so both cones need to be fitted as a mirror image to make sure the alignment of the engine stays straight

Probably not in most cases but maybe in yours would it not just be all that much easier to remove the engine bar tube and reposition it say 10-15 mm lower? For those that go with offset cones, once you find the right position you can weld them in place otherwise they will move over time.... just saying..

Yes that is something I did consider, but I don't want to alter the frame in all honesty, I have been thinking about adding a grubscrew to the cone, so I would just drill a hole in the tube and thread the grubscrew into the cone, thus making the cone unable to turn when the engine is fitted, can also use standard cones later.

A grubscrew! What an excellent idea, yes I like it you'd have to place it opposite the split though I guess.
Shorty after I posted my comment about repositioning the bar tube I went out to take a look at mine and I've got to say it'd be a very easy mod, in fact a piece of piss for a guy of your means.

[Solid Air]

I agree, the grub screw is a great idea! Thanks

[coaster]

I agree, the grub screw is a great idea! Thanks

Further discussion need I think, I THINK that the assembly is supposed to work so that tightening the engine pivot nuts pulls the ferules in the mounts in and that forces the cones into the taper in the frame and at the same time causes the cones to grip the engine pivot bar. This makes it all solid with the movement for suspension travel entirely done by the flex in the mounts. This it to prevent the frame wearing I think. Not sure what effect a grub screw would have but I think it MIGHT interfere with assembly gripping the bar tight at the very least. You could use a grub screw to lock the cones once everything is nipped up tight but not before.....I think

[holty]

I agree, the grub screw is a great idea! Thanks

Further discussion need I think, I THINK that the assembly is supposed to work so that tightening the engine pivot nuts pulls the ferules in the mounts in and that forces the cones into the taper in the frame and at the same time causes the cones to grip the engine pivot bar. This makes it all solid with the movement for suspension travel entirely done by the flex in the mounts. This it to prevent the frame wearing I think. Not sure what effect a grub screw would have but I think it MIGHT interfere with assembly gripping the bar tight at the very least. You could use a grub screw to lock the cones once everything is nipped up tight but not before.....I think

yes that would be a good way install the whole thing, the hole the grub screw went through would have to be large enough to allow the cone to seat into the frame and for the cone to grip the bar as well, it might mean a little bit of filing the hole to get a fit that would have enough clearance to allow the cone and bar to clamp into the frame tube without binding, it might be quite hard to tap a hole into the cone as its tapered, mmm more thought needed.

[coaster]

I think I'll stay with Loctite

[Fast n Furious]

I used to use offset cones but now favour frame mods instead because offset cones are an accident waiting to happen in my opinion.
If it's your own scoot you are doing this to, then you can hold yourself responsible for any changes you make to it. It's not so cut and dried when it's someone else's machine or when your machine is sold on to the next unsuspecting owner.
If you went around a big scooter meet with your torque wrench and offered a free engine mount nut torque test............. How many do you think would make the grade?
Those not making the grade risk the cones spinning in the mount housing with every action of the rear suspension. With concentric cones the potential consequential risk is minimal. With offset cones, the risk is that the whole engine can move wildly out of alignment which will show up like a beacon during an accident investigation. Too late then.
Loctite and even superglue can be used to hold the cones in the desired position whilst the engine is being fitted but it's not a fool proof solution. Similarly, the grub screw idea isn't completely without it's potential failings either.

[rossclark]

If you went around a big scooter meet with your torque wrench and offered a free engine mount nut torque test............. How many do you think would make the grade?

And what is the 'grade' for those nuts on the main engine stud?

I can't find a figure quoted anywhere...

[Fast n Furious]

Me neither.
We have to use reasonable judgement, just like for all the other nuts on the scoot that don't have published figures.
New nyloc nuts improve your chances of it staying torqued up.