Bolt on kit or not?

[Hughieboy]

Good Evening All,

My engine is an Lis 150 that was built by Harry Barlow prior to my ownership. He fitted a longer con rod and a Japanese piston I believe and there as a packer at the base of the cylinder to compensate for the extra length. It is apparently equivalent to 190cc. When I bought it it was running a 22mm Jetex, an Indian big bore exhaust, Indain 12v and Pacemaker gears. I assume quality bearings were used in the build.

I was never particularly impressed with the performance, it might hit 55mph but more usually about 50 so I did a bit of home tuning, 30mm carb, TSR exhaust and matched the ports. Also fitted a Varitronic when the Indian ignition packed up.

It still struggles to top 60mph (gps) and also heat seizes (as mentioned in another post) despite comstantly checking the timing and trying different jetting.

Question is, could I just fit a Mugello or GT 186 kit or something similar? With the longer con rod, would that work if I retain the packer? Or is there more to it than that? Also, would I be asking for trouble by not upgrading the crank? Having forked out for a Varitronic that fits the Li crank it would be handy not to have to change it.

Or am I dillusional and showing my lack of technical knowledge!

Running out of ideas with the bl***y thing....

[ULC Soulagent]

I wouldn’t think that HB would use an Li crank in that set up( be asking for trouble later on)
Fit a new muggy V4 along with a delly 25 mm
Would need to know what length con rod b4 start messing with packers for port timings and all that jazz
It’s a mine field out there in Lammy world but plenty of good peeps on here too keep u on the straight n narrow

[Scooterdude]

Or you could go for the RT 195 kit, i think they do one with a jap piston so may just bolr straight on.

[Hughieboy]

I wouldn’t think that HB would use an Li crank in that set up( be asking for trouble later on)
Fit a new muggy V4 along with a delly 25 mm
Would need to know what length con rod b4 start messing with packers for port timings and all that jazz
It’s a mine field out there in Lammy world but plenty of good peeps on here too keep u on the straight n narrow

It's definitely an Li crank. I was surprised but I know it's an Li one as I had to check it to buy the correct Varitronic. Hence wanting to use it unless it wouldn't cope after dropping the dollar on the Varitronic. And I'm sure it was well built. Never had any reliability issues, it's just I would like it to be a bit quicker and not heat seize....

Either that or I could sell it as a complete unit and buy a different engine if I'm going to muck it up I guess.....

[dickie]

Personally, while I understand your reluctance not to put yourself in the position of having wasted money, I'd treat ignition as secondary. The crank, barrel and piston form tne heart of the engine; eveyrthing else is secondary.

Also, you can buy the gp flywheel on its own and you may be able to recoup some of your money by selling the LI flywheel on eBay etc.

[Hughieboy]

Personally, while I understand your reluctance not to put yourself in the position of having wasted money, I'd treat ignition as secondary. The crank, barrel and piston form tne heart of the engine; eveyrthing else is secondary.

Also, you can buy the gp flywheel on its own and you may be able to recoup some of your money by selling the LI flywheel on eBay etc.

Thats a good point. I could do that. Thanks.

[bookertmgs1]

First decision you need to make is what you looking for performance wise and compare that against the number of miles you do and your style of riding.
There’s a lot of bollocks talked about my kit does this or that or does 85 mph. That’s all great but I guarantee you’ll, spend more riding time getting from 10 to 50mph that spent at 70-85mph.
If your yearly mileage is 500 miles then getting a kit that needs running in for 500 is going to be a pain.
Sunday ride outs if that’s your thing are a pain in the arse on a scooter that only goes somewhere revving it’s tits off
It’s a difficult decision as very few people have a multitude of scooters with different kits and therefore have a tendacy to big up their own purchase without any comparative view or knowledge
As per earlier messages - decide on the kit and then get the other parts to suit. A variotronic gp flywheel is about £85 so shouldn’t distract from the core decision
Don’t hear much bad about the GT or RT kits. But with anything it’s important to set them up right

[Rich Oswald]

On my SX, I have a GP crank with an SX flywheel as the boss has been modified. Don't ask me how as I didn't do it.

Rich'

[HxPaul]

On my SX, I have a GP crank with an SX flywheel as the boss has been modified. Don't ask me how as I didn't do it.

Rich'

You drill out the rivets and change the boss.http://www.scooterrestorations.com/lamb ... th-screws/
They also do a boss if you want to go the other way,from SX,Li to GP.Saves buying a new flywheel.

[holty]

i know the li taper is slightly smaller than the gp, but ive never had one fail, if you needed a new crank i would go down the gp route, otherwise you could just have a new big end bearing fitted and it would be as good as new, your choice of cylinder kit is very wide, if you like standard, gori do a 175 kit, which fits the small block, and a 200 as well, or you could go down the alloy nicasil lined kit route, much harder to sieze, but more expensive when they do, your budget and riding style should be taken into account, you might also need a carb and exhaust upgrade depending on what you opt for, not to mention gearbox and clutch .....

[Hughieboy]

Thats good to know....

It seems a shame to have to change a perfectly good crank.

[Meds]

So don’t change the crank- do it when you can afford it. But there’s a risk that the crank can’t take the power.
As for the kit- yes I would buy a bolt on, I spent loads of time and effort and cash trying to get a standard kit, than an Indian 175 to work, they never did.
As to what kit to buy, that’s down to what you want and how you want to ride.
I’ve an RT195 set up with a 30mm carb and a BGM clubman, nice easy kit to ride, won’t break any land speed records, I’m happy with it. I usually ride with a mate who runs a casa 185/clubman and scootopia 22mm carb, that has a nice spread of power.
There are lots of threads on here and scooterotica about kits.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9244

[Hughieboy]

Thanks,

The RT 195 keeps coming up again and again, I need to read up on it. In my mind, I just thought that maybe junking the tuned standard barrel in favour of a purpose made kit might give me a bit more power and a bit less in the way of heat seize problems. I'm not out to race the TS1 boys!

It's just the issue with the longer con rod that I have, it's something Harry Barlow used to do with a longer con rod and a Suzuki TS piston I believe. I have a feeling it's about 110mm long but I'd need to whip the top end off and check it as it was a while ago I measured it and I can't find a note of it. I was naively hoping that retaining the base packer would compensate for the longer con rod but I suppose pistons might be different lengths too so it might not be that simple!

As you see, I'm a tinkerer not a mechanic!

[Meds]

Setting up an RT kit with a 110 rod isn’t a problem, you need a Packer, the MB website explains the set up.
Read this
https://www.mbscooters.co.uk/info//190- ... r+240.html
My biggest bugbear with it so far is getting a replacement exhaust.
Don’t discount the GT kit as it’s cast iron and has a reed valve. It really depends on how much you want to spend.
you will probably need to alter the gearing and uprate the clutch.
Do your research
I can only speak for my set up- I set it up,16hp but ran crap, had it dyno’d and it went to 18hp. It will pull over 70(gps) I tend to ride it at around 60 (the bike is happy there).

[Hughieboy]

That would be perfect for me... it seems a waste of an otherwise good engine and ancilliaries at present. It has Pacemaker gears, a 30mm carb and TSR expansion. If I could attain a healthy 60+ GPS without constantly hovering over the clutch in case it nips up I would be happy. Have to take into account fat Series 2 leg shields though (although its a series 3 engine)

I have always liked the idea of a GT kit but that might be better if I built or had something built specifically from scratch maybe due too the extra power? In which case I would consider buying 200 engine and going that way. For now with this engine, I'm just trying to get the best out of what I have and making it more usable without spending a fortune or wasting what has already been done.

Probably should have left it with the Clubman and Jetex and been happy at 50-55mph....

[Meds]

I ride mine pretty hard and having it dyno’d gave me confidence in the jetting.
I’m running a pacemaker box at 17x46, which is around 5 and I’ve a 60x110 crank.
You could set it up using the EVO, I have an expansion pipe to fit if I want, but I like the spread of power so don’t really want to lose the clubman.
Mine drags around 100kg of bike and 100kg of me- so it doesn’t do too bad.

[Hughieboy]

Setting up an RT kit with a 110 rod isn’t a problem, you need a Packer, the MB website explains the set up.
Read this
https://www.mbscooters.co.uk/info//190- ... r+240.html
My biggest bugbear with it so far is getting a replacement exhaust.
Don’t discount the GT kit as it’s cast iron and has a reed valve. It really depends on how much you want to spend.
you will probably need to alter the gearing and uprate the clutch.
Do your research
I can only speak for my set up- I set it up,16hp but ran crap, had it dyno’d and it went to 18hp. It will pull over 70(gps) I tend to ride it at around 60 (the bike is happy there).

So after your post I contacted MB who said as long as I use the correct packer and the squish is correct there should be no problem as a direct bolt on replacement for my current top end. Which is what I think I'll do, 60 - 70mph would be ample and it would be good to utilise whats already been done rather than changing everything, different if I was starting from bog standard.

Thanks for the heads up.

[holty]

just going back to the crank, the smaller taper on the crankshaft is fine, but i lightened my flywheel when i tuned mine, that does put less strain on the crank and taper, a worthwhile modification i think, can make tickover a little harder to achive at lower revs,but does make the engine pick up faster as well, worth considering.
suzuki 190 conversions were done 2 ways, one the standard conrod was used and the barrel was topped and tailed, or standard barrel length was used but a tv175 conrod was used, this is 116 i think, so harry might have used a tv rod.

[Hughieboy]

just going back to the crank, the smaller taper on the crankshaft is fine, but i lightened my flywheel when i tuned mine, that does put less strain on the crank and taper, a worthwhile modification i think, can make tickover a little harder to achive at lower revs,but does make the engine pick up faster as well, worth considering.

Cheers. It has a Varitronic so the flywheel is already a lightened one. Hopefully shoud be ok.

[bike grim]

If I were you, and it is one of Harry’s Suzuki conversions, I’d be trying to get that set up to work as you require rather than starting again as he knows his stuff. Chances are it’s a 116mm rod if it’s a Suzuki TS185 piston. I’ve got a Suzuki converted smallbkock using an SR type barrel and it uses a TV rod with a 2mm packer. (not one of Harry’s but another tuner)

Maybe you should look at what gearing it’s running as the pacemaker is a “leggy” box and dropping a sprocket size could do what you need. As for the heat seizes, it may just need setting up. Why don’t you ring Harry?