Duplex Chain Quality

[Fast n Furious]

Just wondering what peoples opinions are regarding Duplex chain quality.
I recently fitted a Rolon chain into a TS1 and it has stretched to the limit in about 800miles of use.
Admittedly, it has been fair thrashed.
Any further stretch will only knacker the sprockets so a new chain will be fitted.
Chain lateral alignment is spot on.
If I fit a chain brand that costs 3 times as much, can I expect at least 3 times the service life?
Do I accept that 800miles is about right for a £15 chain and just replace it on a regular basis?
I have checked the advertised specifications of all the known chains and they all seen to conform to the same technical standard.
Clearly, it's pointless talking to dealers as they will only promote what they stock.
So it's down to the experience of end users.
Opinions invited.

[Phil D]

Will you be trying a different brand this time?

[HxPaul]

I always use original Regina Extra if I'm using an 80 link chain,above that I use Iwis.I never use Rolon chains,their made in India(some good parts are made in India,but not the chains)and they stretch like elastic bands and they are prone to breaking the shells off the links.

[Adam_Winstone]

Agree, Rolon chains are the last option. I've run them and found that they stretch very quickly or have roller shells break up within a thousand miles.

Spend the money on a decent chain and you will not have this occur again.

Adam

[hullygully]

take note & make a wise decision, I didn't listen & had to push my TS1 down a Dutch motorway as the chain snapped

[Fast n Furious]

Will you be trying a different brand this time?

Highly likely.
The 2 main contenders being a British made Renold chain or a German made Iwis.
I expect roller shells to break on any chain that has stretched to it working limit irrespective of who made it.
It's a case of which brand has the best stretch resistance.
If you go by the manufacturers specs then they all stretch the same.
Clearly, there could be some bullshit here.
I'm trying to sort the wheat from the chaff on this matter through dialogue with other experiences before deciding on how to spend any further hard earned.
If an Iwis was to only give another 500 miles of worthwhile service, then there is a technical argument for its use, but it might not be economically viable to use it if you are prepared to change the chain 3 times a year instead of 2 times!

[Phil D]

Or reign in the right wrist a tad

[Phil D]

Having said that I wonder what the guys who race Lambretta's expect to get from a chain and what they use.
Motorsports usually sorts out any weak links ( no pun intended)

[Fast n Furious]

Reigning in the right wrist clearly isn't an option.
Might as well downgrade to a 125 if it came to that!
The racing world has a much different mandate to the road looney. Strip downs and rebuilds after each meeting are to be considered normal, and if adequately sponsored, a new chain each meeting to assure your chances of getting on the podium and claiming the prize money would be a no brainer.
Ultimately, I suppose trial by substitution will be the only way forward on this subject?

[ladsdad]

Hi All

My recommendation would be to buy an iwis chain from a reputable dealer who gives receipts & honour's them. DO NOT buy from random people on eBay etc. The reason I say this is there are a lot of fake chains out there in correct looking packaging (a proper box will have a hologram). Expect to pay £40-50.... If it's less ask why. A decent chain will last for years & thousands of miles even in a high performance engine... You wouldn't expect to change a timing chain in a car's engine every few hundred miles would you? & a Lambretta chain lives in a similar environment. I bought my last chain from that famous S.Yorkshire dealer & I've also bought one from the guy who makes kits & engine cases in Birmingham & from memory I think he was cheaper.

Good luck on your quest...
Mark.
Btw the only chain I've ever had that failed was one of those crappy rolon chains & I don't think it even did 800 miles...!! Buy cheap buy at least twice springs to mind...

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

In all applications, whether road or race, I’ve only ever used OEM (usually Regina) or Renold in the main.

For some years, I have acquired Renold chain in bulk & made my chains to suit using split link joints with ‘one-&-a-half’ links if required.

(Ebay currently have Renold 3/8" duplex x 16.4 feet Item: 182529031507 which should be good enough for six chains for less than 40 quid)

I have no reservations about using a couple of the split link joints either side of ‘one-&-a-half’ links.

I don’t doubt that there are other, good alternatives such as T D Cross & Morse that I have knowledge of from an industrial perspective.

The only chains that have failed have been those acquired (new) in a modified state of being riveted together to try & eliminate split link joints. Just the slight linishing of the outer plates to remove the rivet head was enough to have caused failure.

[ladsdad]

Regarding industrial spec. chain if you ask a specialist (bearing shop) they will tell you that that type of chain is not suitable for the purpose to which you want to use it. Think about it... if all shops needed to do was sell you a lump of chain & a link that's all they would do... the fact that they don't should speak volumes.... In a real world situation, ie, riding not just typing about it, would you really risk personal injury/death to save a few quid?? Leave incorrect spec. Industrial chain for the purpose it belongs.....

Mark.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Regarding industrial spec. chain if you ask a specialist (bearing shop) they will tell you that that type of chain is not suitable for the purpose to which you want to use it. Think about it... if all shops needed to do was sell you a lump of chain & a link that's all they would do... the fact that they don't should speak volumes.... In a real world situation, ie, riding not just typing about it, would you really risk personal injury/death to save a few quid?? Leave incorrect spec. Industrial chain for the purpose it belongs.....

Mark.

One of us is under a false apprehension. However, I don't think my understanding is one clouded by smoke & mirrors, but I could be wrong.....

We are discussing 3/8" pitch duplex chain that (for our purposes) runs in an oil bath & thus has a vastly different environment in which it must function compared, say, to the final drive chain of a motorcycle.

This is what I believe are the facts:

A company such as Renold manufacture power transmission products to Universally accepted Standards for use wherever their products must comply & compete to ensure their continued existence. Those standards will apply across all industry, whether it be OEM car timing chain, OEM conveyor chain, OEM forklift chain or replacement scooter drive chain.

If your "specialist (bearing shop)" can tell you what chain they would sell you any different to what I have advocated & the Universally accepted Standards to which they comply that is any better, I might begin to believe it....

[ladsdad]

There have been three ( or four if you include myself ) people advising fitting a quality chain that is specific for the job. All these people ride Lambretta's, sometimes hundreds of miles. None of them is advising fitting cheap chain bought by the foot . I appreciate that renold's do or did make good quality chain but they most certainly made more than one grade and the stuff you're suggesting is'nt suitable simple as that.. no smoke , no mirrors & certainly no pseudo technical babble!

If the stuff you're advising is that good, why not sell the guy posting the question a piece, then if he has any problems you'll be liable & will no doubt be able to sort him out, won't you?

Oh by the way had a look at the eBay ad.... doesn't say anywhere suitable for making Lambretta drive chains.......

Mark.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Just wondering what peoples opinions are regarding Duplex chain quality.
I recently fitted a Rolon chain into a TS1 and it has stretched to the limit in about 800miles of use.
Admittedly, it has been fair thrashed.
Any further stretch will only knacker the sprockets so a new chain will be fitted.
Chain lateral alignment is spot on.
If I fit a chain brand that costs 3 times as much, can I expect at least 3 times the service life?
Do I accept that 800miles is about right for a £15 chain and just replace it on a regular basis?
I have checked the advertised specifications of all the known chains and they all seen to conform to the same technical standard.
Clearly, it's pointless talking to dealers as they will only promote what they stock.
So it's down to the experience of end users.
Opinions invited.

The quotation above is the original Post, to which I have responded.

There have been three ( or four if you include myself ) people advising fitting a quality chain that is specific for the job. All these people ride Lambretta's, sometimes hundreds of miles. None of them is advising fitting cheap chain bought by the foot . I appreciate that renold's do or did make good quality chain but they most certainly made more than one grade and the stuff you're suggesting is'nt suitable simple as that.. no smoke , no mirrors & certainly no pseudo technical babble!

If the stuff you're advising is that good, why not sell the guy posting the question a piece, then if he has any problems you'll be liable & will no doubt be able to sort him out, won't you?

Oh by the way had a look at the eBay ad.... doesn't say anywhere suitable for making Lambretta drive chains.......

Mark.

Far from being “pseudo technical babble” any respected manufacturer of a product is willing to quote the Standards by which they conform. I could go on any number of Websites & repeat the relevant Standards here. For the record, I also have bought (swapped & sold) bearings & seals etc of known quality from Power Transmission Product Stockists, none of which stated their suitability for Lambrettas or Vespas. You may have even heard of two of the people I supplied called Dave Webster & Norrie Kerr.

Can you quote the Quality Standards for whatever product you consider superior? Or do you just 'know' that it must be better because you think it?

Just because you think you are right, doesn’t make me wrong! I’ve also covered “hundreds of miles” as is inevitable if I’ve owned Lambrettas continuously since 1973. Currently, there are three fully built with about 25bhp apiece in the garage, two frames in the attic & one frame in the dining room.

Just remember, I haven't been dismissive of the chain you pay more for! It's you that is dismissive of what I've advised! So much for a 'Friendly Forum!'

As for “the guy posting the question” I’d be prepared to lend him some of my chain (though I may have no unused stock) for his own trial. Fast n Furious can PM me if he wants to do so.

[ladsdad]

Just a few answers for the points you've raised in no particular order:-

Not interested in who you may or may not have supplied parts to...& name dropping is just a diversion in my opinion​.
Riding a scooter is not the same as having several sat in a garage gather dust....
I don't just think I'm right about the chain I've suggested I know I'm right that's why ALL scooter shops sell complete chains of a specific length not just a length of chain off a roll...
The poster of the question is after a better chain than he is already using, myself & others have suggested various makes of quality chains that are supplied to be used a a Lambretta drive chain, you are suggesting a chain which may be fit for purpose, but as the poster say's in his original question he's looked at lots of chain's that all appear to conform to the same standards but his experience tells otherwise....
...And yes this is a friendly forum & this is me being friendly.... or a least tolerant
Please don't feel the need to comment/ quote again as I'm sure the poster has a good idea what's available & to keep banging on is just boring...

Mark.

[Knowledge]

Oh dear.

All I wanted to say was Tsubaki, but I think my contribution will now be lost as this thread seems to be heading somewhere else.

[dickie]

Split links really aren't the terrible things that people think they are. Club racers with a few years on them will happily use them. I once raced with a chain that was so slack (yes, yes I know) that it jumped on the sprockets coming out of every slow corner, but i managed to finish the race. It was so bad that my rear sprocket was missing about 25% of its teeth at the end of the race. The split link was absolutely fine though, as was the chain. This is slightly different as it's easy to inspect a bike chain, but only slightly different as it's not so easy to inspect them when you're riding!

The problems with chain links are firstly one of impression, inasmuch as they just 'seem' like a home-made job rather than one made by a proper manufacturer. Secondly they are of course a home-made job once installed and you have to have confidence in your own skills; I'm sure we've all built brakes for ourselves though.


A word of warning about specialist suppliers is that very few of them are actually either qualified engineers or end users. So tend to have limited knowledge about the failure modes of their products.

[Tractorman]

Split links really aren't the terrible things that people think they are. Club racers with a few years on them will happily use them. I once raced with a chain that was so slack (yes, yes I know) that it jumped on the sprockets coming out of every slow corner, but i managed to finish the race. It was so bad that my rear sprocket was missing about 25% of its teeth at the end of the race. The split link was absolutely fine though, as was the chain. This is slightly different as it's easy to inspect a bike chain, but only slightly different as it's not so easy to inspect them when you're riding!

The problems with chain links are firstly one of impression, inasmuch as they just 'seem' like a home-made job rather than one made by a proper manufacturer. Secondly they are of course a home-made job once installed and you have to have confidence in your own skills; I'm sure we've all built brakes for ourselves though.


A word of warning about specialist suppliers is that very few of them are actually either qualified engineers or end users. So tend to have limited knowledge about the failure modes of their products.

The last paragraph is so very true. Our storeman said that so long as you replied promptly and authority to a query when asked customers always believe you. As for chains I can see not reason why a like for like chain a from a quality chain manufacturer should not match Iwis chains. On the subject of joining links it must be better not to use them but if you do use ones with splitpins and always use a new pin. This is of course my personal opinion and does not contradict anyone else's.

[Warkton Tornado No.1]

Despite any pre-emptive attempts @ intimidation, I’ll stick my neck out again in my attempt to offer good, sound advice without making presumptions about products or Forum Members in their use of their machines.

In fact, I continue to try my best to abide to the LCGB Forum Rules.

Going back to the O P, Fast n Furious invited opinion on chain having had a poor experience with a particular brand of chain he fitted. My own contribution to this request has been disputed by one contributor based upon his knowledge alone.

The aforementioned, 'problem' chains are made in India & although their (Indiamart) website has an abundance of Certification, it is unclear what Quality Standards might apply. Nevertheless, some of you might be assured that they may be alright to try as some Scooter Shops may sell them, although we don’t as yet know where Fast n Furious acquired his. However, as we all must surely know by now, the overriding consideration is that a particular contributor believes you should shop nowhere else for transmission chain.

(You may see some contradiction in the fact that Fast n Furious’ experience with a certain manufacturer was dire yet he may have acquired his chain from one of the “ALL scooter shops sell complete chains of a specific length not just a length of chain off a roll”)

On the other hand, genuine (non-counterfeit) chains of a manufacture where they work to fully accredited Quality Standards (examples include Cross & Morse, Iwis, Regina, Renold, Sedis, Tsubaki) might be worth the risk to those open-minded enough to consider them & technically capable of making them up to length.

(There’s nothing particularly radical or recent about going direct to a Transmission Stockists & buying chain that will be capable of functioning in far more extreme conditions than a Lambretta can throw @ it. After all (@ the risk of name dropping) as mentioned in ‘Preparing a Track Lambretta’ by Dave Webster (Part 4 Transmission) it is suggested to “take the chain as a pattern to a” “Transmission Stockists i.e.Reynolds*” “& ask for the new one to be riveted”)

*Reynolds is a misspelling of Renolds which shouldn’t diminish the huge contribution Dave Webster made to Lambretta ownership Worldwide.