My first restoration: TV175 Ser 3

[HxPaul]

Hi,welcome to the forum.Regarding the crank,if I were in your position I would check the crank bearing and if it is the original RIV bearing and it is in good condition I would leave it.The crank will have to come out to change the drive side oil seal and mag oil seals,while its out you can decide wether to go electronic or leave it 6v.Most of all .......... enjoy the rebuild.

Paul

[911hillclimber]

Thank you; just decided to replace the lot for peace of mind. I don't want to do all this work only to have to take it all down again due to a rumbling 50 year old bearing. Insurance I hope.

I feel my budget is already under pressure!
For such a simple thing, sure are a lot of bits (that are best replaced).
Definitely keeping 6V/points for the real deal. My Li and TV way back never let me down, but they were only about 6 years old at the time....

Standard clutch and as much standard TV as I can with a bill for the engine bits at £285 plus the P&B @ £113. Please don't tell me I could have bought it all cheaper!
Labour is free.

I hope this drive train will be as sweet as it can be.

Need to find a Ducati 6V flywheel with all it's fins now.
Will repair the cylinder cowl and the Italian tin-opener approach to accessing something. That is £30 saved.

I stopped at buying the gearbox oil (initially to soak the clutch plates in) as the postage was greater than the oil!

What do you all use and from where please? (Halfords source would be good)

[911hillclimber]

away from the oily bits:

Just got my Club date certificate.
Just ordered (why can't you download?) the V55/5.

To get a registration number the excellent Club info sheet says you need an MoT. Does this mean that you can only get a registration Doc once the scooter is finished?
Thus I send the V55/5 in when the scooter has an Mot/Insurance etc?

Graham.

[Toddy]

Some info here may help you regarding registration ,

http://www.ilambretta.co.uk/register.html

[grandpa]

Hi hillclimber,
I assume your scoot is not registered. On the old system you needed form 386 or form 389 to show VAT had been paid, dating certificate ,MOT and insurance with your application .The insurance Co would give you a month's insurance on chassis no.Many people were caught out with the introduction of NOVA(notification of vehicle arrival) around April 2013.This was to stop people building scooters from bits without paying VAT.You will need to apply for NOVA registration .Once you have a NOVA reference you then apply with mot, dating certificate and insurance.You can obtain NOVA before scoot has been completed. Simples
I think I have got it right. I managed to register my no2 scoot just as the changes came in. You can email DVLA they are very helpful
Grandpa

[911hillclimber]

Thank you both for the help.
Goodness knows where the purchase receipt is after 15 years!
The dealer is still in business so he may help me.

I was wanting to get a registration number for the scooter while I was re-building it rather than re-build, then MoT etc.
I have the NOVA forms here in front of me and the 8 pages of guidance notes (!)

Bed-time reading.
I get the feeling this will be quite a challenge.

In the meantime a big box with a lot of bits in it arrived today, the P&B etc is soon. Soon be time to re-build as opposed to stripping/cleaning/buying.
Removing all the side cover studs to clean the gasket face was a chore but one along the bottom is a bit 'stripped' so might have to tap M8 and get a repair stud, M6 to M8 to repair it.
Crank out and it seems fine as does the chain side bearing behind the screwed on cover (the one with the centre punch locking method..)
Needs a good cleaning as there is a thin black coating over the webs, and also evidence of the route the broken ring took. That failure marked just about every top end part of the engine sometime when it let go in Rome.

I think the completed engine will be about £500 when done.

Just out of interest, how much would my TV cost today in the 'as imported' condition, complete but needing renovation?
I've just found the receipt for the TV, and I paid a lot more than I remember 15 years ago...

Graham.

[rossclark]

Have a squint on ebay, basket case imports 1-1.5k for less desirable models than the TV. I think that you would expect to pay somewhere between 2-3k for a fresh off the boat TV175, upwards of 4k restored.

[911hillclimber]

Ok, I feel a bit better now!
A fellow Club member has offered me a replacement Ducati flywheel, so that's sorted.

I will leave the castings as they are, obviously cleaned but not vapour blasted. they have all the right patina for the age of course.

Started to study the NOVA which states that the imported vehicle must be 'NOVA'd' within 14 days of importation.

There is a fine for being late!
I presume this should have been the man who originally imported it 15+ years ago!

I'm not sure where NOVA starts/finishes and V55/5 form awaited from the DVLA!

[Noddabodder]

Hi Graham, welcome to the forum.

I always feel there is a mental readjustment needed for those getting back to scooters as prices, technology and the quality of parts on offer have changed dramatically. What used to be just a cheap mode of transport has become a very niche and impassioned lifestyle. Lambrettas for sale at £10k and more are no longer surprising, in fact it won't be long before a top end engine costs that amount.

The good news is that this scoot will probably get under your skin more than you ever imagined and it will continue to bring happiness long after the shock of the cost has faded (or should that be, it will continue to cost long after the build has finished ). If you think the forum is welcoming wait 'til you go to some of the LCGB events.

My tuppence worth on the rebuild is that if you must fit indicators make sure they are easily removable, mount them on carriers etc, no holes drilled in bodywork. Small LED's are fairly discrete but even so, be prepared from some raised eyebrows from the Lambretta snobs (you know who you are folks ).

The best safety advice is to choose your roads and travel times carefully. Lambrettas do not belong in motorway mayhem and dim weather conditions. Sunny Sunday morning B roads are what it's all about, life is too short for schlepping up over the M62 in freezing fog at night on a fifty plus year old scooter.

[911hillclimber]

Fully understand your thoughts.

To be doing this TV after nearly 46 years 'gap' shows what a mark those early days left on me.
Really enjoying the restoration so far.

Big box arrived from Beedspeed today with the all-new P&B&rings and head.
Looks nice, and I'm pleased now I bought new.

The head though has left me thinking (about compression).

The chamber in the new head is very deep compared to the real TV head. Not sure if to fit the new one as I think I'll loose some bhp.
I can clean-up the dinged head where the ring had a smashing time to remove any hot spots, but the chamber looks a better job.

Any thoughts gents?

Decided to restore the cylinder cowl. The Italian Mechanic had cut it open to get to the exhaust nuts I guess and a huge part of the side was bitten out.

After a bit of fetling the welds are just cooling down. After a bit of a grind and a powder coat the cowl is saved, and I've saved some ££ by not buying a new one.

[coaster]

I personally don't subscribe to the sticking to the back roads school of thought. I returned to scooters 10 years ago at the age of 50 and admit to feeling quite vulnerable and nervous on it especially on dual carriageways. However you do get used to it and so long as you make concessions for modern traffic and ride VERY defensively, you can ride your scooter pretty much anywhere, plenty of people on here do. ridden not hidden

As for the new head, you need to understand that due to unleaded fuel, our engines cannot cope with the higher compression ratios that we used to have, we also have to retard the ignition by a few degrees and yes, it will affect the performance. The beadspeed head has what is called a 'squish band' machined around the outer edge of the combustion chamber. The idea behind the squish band is to accelerate the flame front into the combustion chamber and at the same time, uses the fuel/air mix to help transfer heat from the piston crown into the head. When building your engine you will need to measure the squish clearance and adjust the thickness of cylinder head and or base gaskets to get the squish gap to the optimum clearance (1.2mm ish). Sticky's book covers it in some detail

[911hillclimber]

Smashing!
Good info and I thank you for it, all makes sense.

As to riding, my wife is not impressed at the thought. We have several deaths of bikers locally on an infamous road about 1/2 mile from me. you can hear the ambulances at 10.00am on a sunday morning or summer's Wednesday night...

Anyway, need to actually start rebuilding it!

[Storkfoot]

I like your enthusiasm and I don't want to dampen it

But, I'd get the piston to bore clearance properly checked, probably also the cylinder head compression too. In my experience (I can't comment on Beedspeed), too many of these "cheap" kits are thrown together and often have little or no clearance or cross hatching of the bore. If you don't get it checked, you may find yourself seizing early into the running in period and then find yourself in an endless cycle of taking the head off, wet and dry piston etc etc. before you eventually ditch it and buy something else. This is a worst case scenario but I suspect we all know someone who has been there

Someone posted earlier about using the original barrel rebored with a Race Tour piston and a head matched to the piston. In my opinion, whilst this will have been more expensive, if done by someone who knows what they are doing, this would have been a good option.

Again, in my opinion, always explore re-using original Innocenti parts. Some parts just wear out through old age and are just fit for the bin (an example would be gear swivels which wear out and often need replacing). However, other original parts, and I'd include rear hub bearings in this (not always but quite often) can often be reused, Put it this way I've done many thousands of miles on rear hub bearings that are 40 years old plus without incident.

Keep us posted

[911hillclimber]

Thank you for the advice, it all helps. It won't diminish my enthusiasm, but will make me cautious!
I am hoping people sell good stuff!
The original cylinder would need about a 1mm overbore to remove the gouges in the bore around the port where I suspect the ring broke. Someone in Italy took the lot off, cleaned it out, fresh rings on the same piston and off they went again. There was still bits of shards/ring in the bottom of the crankcase as that could not be cleaned properly. Further, the top cooling fin has been snapped off, about 40% of it. This must have been when the exhaust was removed and during the can opener episode to the cowl.
A friend has a hand honer so we can put cross hatching into the bore. The port edges need some tlc and I'll do a piston/head clearance check as a dry build before the full button-up of the top end.

The crank bearings that came out, 1964 vintage, are remarkably good and there is nothing in the rear hub bearing and no leaky seals anywhere. I'm leaving the chain side crank bearing in, changing the mag side and seal, and to be honest I'm leaving the gearbox as it is though the clearance under the top cover is 18 thou. I'll keep the bearings I have safe, hopefully not to be needed later.

I have a fresh new OEM clutch, 4 plate with new corks/steels and springs, new 80 link chain, new guides, circlips etc and seals.
Cleaned the mag casing today and all the threads for the cowl screws are intact!

All of the million case studs are out, gasket faces scraped clean and re-installed with a tiny drop of Loctite. Forgot to order new inlet and exhaust studs

I want to get all the new parts in and the covers on asap so the lot is tight and I can move to the carb, and then the big stuff, the frame and forks.

[dickie]

Thank you for the advice, it all helps. It won't diminish my enthusiasm, but will make me cautious!
I am hoping people sell good stuff!

Not as long as you, but 27 years off scooters and on Japanese race bikes has taught me that parts fit.

Wrong, they don't. At least not on lambrettas anyway.

Best advice I can give is don't buy eBay stuff unless you have no choice; as a rule it's shit.

As long as you can afford it, buy from Mark broadhurst.

I'm serious.

[911hillclimber]

I don't know Mark, I presume he runs a company for parts?

I am where I an so to speak, so the Beedspeed P&B will go in.
Spanners crossed..

JUST FOUND HIM OFF GOOGLE, MB DEVELOPMENTS.

[dickie]

I don't know Mark, I presume he runs a company for parts?

I am where I an so to speak, so the Beedspeed P&B will go in.
Spanners crossed..

JUST FOUND HIM OFF GOOGLE, MB DEVELOPMENTS.

I wasn't saying that there is anything wrong with what you've bought; without seeing it that would be a pretty foolish thing to do. I was just pointing out that I have wasted quite a lot of money on crap and have found a few suppliers I can rely on, depending what I'm after. I can't comment on Beedspeed as I haven't bought from them since 1988!

I think someone said before, but do the following to your barrel and piston:

Check piston to bore clearance - should be under 0.1mm for a cast iron barrel. Do this at lots of positions; right round the piston and at various piston heights - that way you will be able to do a sort of DIY check for ovality.
check your ring gaps - should be between 0.25 and 0.6mm
Chamfer you ports - particularly the exhaust port as it's the widest one - don't go overboard with this or you will end up changing your port timing inadvertently

MB developments is Mark Broadhurst's company. They make a lot of parts which are MUCH better than the alternatives. Also, his website gives some excellent advice on engine building (amongst other things) so is definitely worth a look.

[911hillclimber]

Fair enough, will have an early hours look tomorrow. (you haven't forgotten the flywheel have you?)
I was hoping to prep everything with a dry-build of the head etc but have realised I forgot to order the 'flat' steel ring that goes between the mag bearing and the outer seal so stopping me from putting the crank back in.
I distorted it (ie smashed it) getting the bearing etc out of the mag case so a delay.

Also need the odd M7 exhaust and inlet studs and nuts so another little list of bits from Allstyles.

The mag side crank bearing inner was a darling to get off. Heat was no good so followed Stickys trick of a jubilee clip around the seal journal and out with the trusty angle grinder and ground a flat on one side of the ring and then it duly pulled off the crank. Just a tiny mark on the bearing journal on the crank proves I've been there. Perhaps I should have been a dentist...
Heated the new one up and it tapped on neatly.

Cowl all ground and saved from the re-cycle bin.

Clutch in fresh oil for 24 hours, ready for assembly tomorrow afternoon.
Getting there but not too good at the parts side yet, I'll be an expert when I'm done.

Still no V55/5 from the DVLA.

[dickie]

Couple of tips

Not all halite gaskets are the same thickness. I bought one that was 2mm thick which caused me a nightmare.i

The plate which you damaged can be bought anywhere but the mb one is 0.7mm thinner, which is a good thing. Don't ask mb for a thin one though as the chap I spoke to was adamant that they are the same; he's wrong.

I was going to send your flywheel and stator yesterday but it was filthy so I'm cleaning it a bit.

Can you pm your address please?

[911hillclimber]

PM sent just.

I'll take a look at the MB site, last time I looked it was easy to use, the Allstyles one is too.